is there a war on the poor?

holnrew

Drew_fx said:

Dunno about war on the poor, but there is definitely a war on brain cells around 'ere!

What do you mean?

Iamnobody

richardhomer said:

tone1 said:

Hernia Scars

That's a lousy band name....

Not if they were a Shoegauze band...

bingefeller

ourmaninthenorth said:

bingefeller said:

capo4th said:

Anyway can someone lend me £80 my son needs a new blazer for school.

Wouldn't surprise me if we actually saw a thread like this on here from a member taking advantage of the kind members of tFB. 

Is that a specific dig against a particular person, or just a general dig? 

Just a general dig

ourmaninthenorth

Iamnobody said:

holnrew said:

I went on a course they provide which was full time, but was still expected to put in 30 hours a week applying for jobs. It's a very punitive system that works counter intuitively in my experience.

This isn't a pop at you Holn as I've gathered from your posts that there are health problems that restrict you - but sometimes you have to work your balls off and put in the effort to help yourself.

You can do every course the GOV. offers but if you are not actively seeking work it won't get you anywhere.

When I was 18 I worked two days, was at college 3 days and worked 5 nights a week in a shitty bingo club. Then still managed course work at weekends etc.

That's probably not far off the time they expected job seekers on that course to invest...

Besides lots of people who are employed work 60+ hours a week.

And I'd bet that the majority of JSA claimants do nothing like 30 hours...as long as they can show they applied for a certain number of jobs - which doesn't take that long these days with computers.

If that's not a pop, it'll do until a proper one comes along.

Some people have enduring difficulties which exclude them, sometimes temporarily, often permanently from the mainstream, and not merely the workplace. Those people need our assistance, not approbation. 

I'd bet that the majority of people claiming such assistance are genuine...in a similar vein I laugh to scorn the idea that everyone claiming welfare is a feckless balloon. 

It's what the bastards want me to think, well fuck 'em, I'll think for myself. 

Put 10p on tax, I'll gladly pay it...as I have for almost 4 decades...if it keeps the unwell safe, the kids fed and schooled, the old warm and comfortable..that's fine by me.

As an aside @holnrew ... there is no need to justify nor defend your position as far as I'm concerned..that's neither pity not sympathy, nor particularly meant in a condescending way... it's just a fact. 

ourmaninthenorth

bingefeller said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

bingefeller said:

capo4th said:

Anyway can someone lend me £80 my son needs a new blazer for school.

Wouldn't surprise me if we actually saw a thread like this on here from a member taking advantage of the kind members of tFB. 

Is that a specific dig against a particular person, or just a general dig? 

Just a general dig

Shit...I've just dug me pitchfork out of the barn for nothing. 

marantz1300

 

Some people have enduring difficulties which exclude them, sometimes temporarily, often permanently from the mainstream, and not merely the workplace. Those people need our assistance, not approbation. 

I'd bet that the majority of people claiming such assistance are genuine...in a similar vein I laugh to scorn the idea that everyone claiming welfare is a feckless balloon. 

It's what the bastards want me to think, well fuck 'em, I'll think for myself. 

Put 10p on tax, I'll gladly pay it...as I have for almost 4 decades...if it keeps the unwell safe, the kids fed and schooled, the old warm and comfortable..that's fine by me.

As an aside @holnrew ... there is no need to justify nor defend your position as far as I'm concerned..that's neither pity not sympathy, nor particularly meant in a condescending way... it's just a fact. 

Well said.

I don't consider i'm rich or poor.

I own my house, have no debts, have savings and a well paid job.my kids are educated and have left home.

I would happily pay more tax if it helped those with hard life's.

Some people have it all and are just greedy/selfish.

Drew_TNBD

inb4 Mags with "virtue signalling"

digitalscream

marantz1300 said:

I own my house, have no debts, have savings and a well paid job.my kids are educated and have left home.

Newsflash...that makes you rich, relatively-speaking.

marantz1300 said:

I would happily pay more tax if it helped those with hard life's.

I have good news for you! Charities' doors are always open. They'd love it if you put half of your spare cash every month into their coffers, because they want to help you avoid being one of those greedy/selfish people.

bingefeller

I'm certain the people saying they would happily pay more tax to help others etc would take an issue with it if they really did have to.  

ourmaninthenorth

digitalscream said:

marantz1300 said:

I own my house, have no debts, have savings and a well paid job.my kids are educated and have left home.

Newsflash...that makes you rich, relatively-speaking.

marantz1300 said:

I would happily pay more tax if it helped those with hard life's.

I have good news for you! Charities' doors are always open. They'd love it if you put half of your spare cash every month into their coffers, because they want to help you avoid being one of those greedy/selfish people.

Are there no workhouse? No Prisons? 

I'm in a similar position to @marantz1300...but have got there in conjunction with being a regular charitable donator, both fiscally and in terms of volunteering significant portions of my time...gladly and by en large without need for recognition, for decades. I'm no saint, believe me, but when my back was against the wall in younger life, somebody did exactly that for me, by action they showed me the way. 

So I am rich, but not, I suspect, in the sense you infer. 

digitalscream

ourmaninthenorth said:

Are there no workhouse? No Prisons? 

Not entirely sure what you mean there.

My point is that everybody who says, "I would happily pay more tax if it helped those with hard life's (sic)" has ample opportunity to help the less fortunate far more directly than by paying more tax, and yet...largely, they don't (otherwise they wouldn't be saying it).

I'm not doubting you. I'm just saying it's often a very empty statement, usually based more in a sense of moral superiority than deed. Given his contributions to this thread so far, I'm inclined to believe my version of it in his case.

That said...anybody who owns their own house with no debt is categorically rich in comparison with the majority of the population.

Iamnobody

ourmaninthenorth said:

Iamnobody said:

holnrew said:

I went on a course they provide which was full time, but was still expected to put in 30 hours a week applying for jobs. It's a very punitive system that works counter intuitively in my experience.

This isn't a pop at you Holn as I've gathered from your posts that there are health problems that restrict you - but sometimes you have to work your balls off and put in the effort to help yourself.

You can do every course the GOV. offers but if you are not actively seeking work it won't get you anywhere.

When I was 18 I worked two days, was at college 3 days and worked 5 nights a week in a shitty bingo club. Then still managed course work at weekends etc.

That's probably not far off the time they expected job seekers on that course to invest...

Besides lots of people who are employed work 60+ hours a week.

And I'd bet that the majority of JSA claimants do nothing like 30 hours...as long as they can show they applied for a certain number of jobs - which doesn't take that long these days with computers.

If that's not a pop, it'll do until a proper one comes along.

Some people have enduring difficulties which exclude them, sometimes temporarily, often permanently from the mainstream, and not merely the workplace. Those people need our assistance, not approbation. 

I'd bet that the majority of people claiming such assistance are genuine...in a similar vein I laugh to scorn the idea that everyone claiming welfare is a feckless balloon. 

It's what the bastards want me to think, well fuck 'em, I'll think for myself. 

Put 10p on tax, I'll gladly pay it...as I have for almost 4 decades...if it keeps the unwell safe, the kids fed and schooled, the old warm and comfortable..that's fine by me.

As an aside @holnrew ... there is no need to justify nor defend your position as far as I'm concerned..that's neither pity not sympathy, nor particularly meant in a condescending way... it's just a fact. 

It wasn't a pop - I stated it's different for Holn from it at the start. Having reread my continued use of 'you' might not infer that.

My point was its not unreasonable to expect JSA claimers (unless they have other problems which make it hard for them like Holn) to do a course and continue looking for work.

If nothing else it will install a hard work ethic that will serve anyone well in life.

AliGorie

there's a schism in the country and the poor ‘get it’.
I remember when DC’s cabinet was announced there were 29 ?< >,  23 of whom were millionaires. what kind of people would allow that to come about ? - we, the electorate.
Oh, they'll get sanctioned but we’ll condone and encourage this kind of practice -
 
Royal Mail was worth £10bn, said JP Morgan. It sold for £6bn less

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/24/royal-mail-worth-10bn-jp-morgan

Dominic Chappell used £1.5m BHS loan to pay off family mortgage
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/21/dominic-chappell-used-15m-bhs-loan-to-pay-off-family-mortgage?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

not to mention the billions of unpaid tax in a system designed just to do that.
If anything we are complicit in the poverty of the poor.

digitalscream

AliGorie said:

I remember when DC’s cabinet was announced there were 29 ?< >,  23 of whom were millionaires. what kind of people would allow that to come about ? - we, the electorate.

What on earth is the relevance?

You act as though the rich can only possibly act in one way - to try to become more rich.

That's just the same as saying the poor can only act in one way, and is patently bullshit.

ourmaninthenorth

digitalscream said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Are there no workhouse? No Prisons? 

Not entirely sure what you mean there.

My point is that everybody who says, "I would happily pay more tax if it helped those with hard life's (sic)" has ample opportunity to help the less fortunate far more directly than by paying more tax, and yet...largely, they don't (otherwise they wouldn't be saying it).

I'm not doubting you. I'm just saying it's often a very empty statement, usually based more in a sense of moral superiority than deed. Given his contributions to this thread so far, I'm inclined to believe my version of it in his case.

That said...anybody who owns their own house with no debt is categorically rich in comparison with the majority of the population.

It's a quote from Scrooge in A Christmas Carol, upon being asked for a charitable donation to assist the poor.

Some of us who are saying it, well, aren't just saying it and are trying to do over and above that which is normatively required, not for praise..but because one can. We are legion. 

I'm not an apologist for my position, nor an attacker of yours. 

I've found that those who rely on moral superiority in any real sense, are universally lacking one of the constituent parts of the expression. Those that actually try to narrate their own moral humility are a different kettle of whatsits altogether. 

oaf

digitalscream said

That said...anybody who owns their own house with no debt is categorically rich in comparison with the majority of the population.

Interestingly (or not...!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31622772

A lot of homes are owned with no mortgage. Younger people don't tend to be in that situation - and it will depend on the circles you mix in obviously re your view/definition of "rich" etc - but there is plenty of wealth about.

ourmaninthenorth

Iamnobody said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Iamnobody said:

holnrew said:

I went on a course they provide which was full time, but was still expected to put in 30 hours a week applying for jobs. It's a very punitive system that works counter intuitively in my experience.

This isn't a pop at you Holn as I've gathered from your posts that there are health problems that restrict you - but sometimes you have to work your balls off and put in the effort to help yourself.

You can do every course the GOV. offers but if you are not actively seeking work it won't get you anywhere.

When I was 18 I worked two days, was at college 3 days and worked 5 nights a week in a shitty bingo club. Then still managed course work at weekends etc.

That's probably not far off the time they expected job seekers on that course to invest...

Besides lots of people who are employed work 60+ hours a week.

And I'd bet that the majority of JSA claimants do nothing like 30 hours...as long as they can show they applied for a certain number of jobs - which doesn't take that long these days with computers.

If that's not a pop, it'll do until a proper one comes along.

Some people have enduring difficulties which exclude them, sometimes temporarily, often permanently from the mainstream, and not merely the workplace. Those people need our assistance, not approbation. 

I'd bet that the majority of people claiming such assistance are genuine...in a similar vein I laugh to scorn the idea that everyone claiming welfare is a feckless balloon. 

It's what the bastards want me to think, well fuck 'em, I'll think for myself. 

Put 10p on tax, I'll gladly pay it...as I have for almost 4 decades...if it keeps the unwell safe, the kids fed and schooled, the old warm and comfortable..that's fine by me.

As an aside @holnrew ... there is no need to justify nor defend your position as far as I'm concerned..that's neither pity not sympathy, nor particularly meant in a condescending way... it's just a fact. 

It wasn't a pop - I stated it's different for Holn from it at the start. Having reread my continued use of 'you' might not infer that.

My point was its not unreasonable to expect JSA claimers (unless they have other problems which make it hard for them like Holn) to do a course and continue looking for work.

If nothing else it will install a hard work ethic that will serve anyone well in life.

Fair enough Steve..my point was merely to point out that some people's difficulties are so enduring and life un-affirming that the measurable benefits of "hard work" and life progress don't have the same resonance in comparison to those without the difficulty. 

The real question is how do we, as a society, strive to be as inclusive as possible with everyone, when it appears that everyone is so self absorbed and full steam ahead just trying to keep their own households afloat. 

I'm not talking about a little house on the prairie type thing, but I feel we need a model that works better than the one we're being force fed. 

digitalscream

ourmaninthenorth said:

The real question is how do we, as a society, strive to be as inclusive as possible with everyone, when it appears that everyone is so self absorbed and full steam ahead just trying to keep their own households afloat. 

I don't think it's about striving to be inclusive; it's about striving not to be exclusive. Look at our society - in social terms, everything is built around division and tribalism. Politics, sport, economics...almost every story and thread you see about any of these things revolves around one demographic not liking another.

Until that ends - until we can disagree without it devolving into abuse and hate as its logical end point - nothing will change.

And yes, I'm occasionally guilty of that myself. Never said I was perfect

littlegreenman

I have an OK job, below national average wage but it's not too bad up here in the grim North. I rent and go from month to month doing OK, with enough to get by and I have some nice toys. Any large or unexpected expense would totally fook me over though and potentially render me homeless unless I sold a few of those toys.

However, there's a house and at least one or two other inheritances waiting in the wings that could render me "rich", but that's assuming I outlive a few of my aging relatives. On the one hand it's money in the bank for the years down the line, on the other it's none of my business and if my relatives wanted to sell up and blow the lot then good on them. I "think" I'm still good for the house though.

So I live assuming I'll never get to see any of it. I'm "potentially" rich, but as we all know fields of potentiality can either create a Universe or collapse to nothing. There's definitely worse situations to be in.

ourmaninthenorth

I certainly agree with the mutuality idea of inclusive versus exclusive. 

Until we all stop believing that there is actually something new under the sun, then this circus will continue to roll through town, with the same recruitment success.

I was watching the news earlier...various pictures of war, destruction, stupidity..et al, and happened to casually mention to my Good Lady that I didn't understand what a single one of the conflicts was actually about, her reply.." neither do they" 

I'm glad I'm paying her by the word.....

But therein lies the rub, what if this stuff is simply our nature? What if our species's ultimate existential role is simply to self destruct. 

And on those glad tidings, I'll bid you all goodnight....I have plans for a bunker to draw up...Darling, where's me bleedin pencil..I've work afoot.....