Labour, can they sink any lower?

digitalscream

paulads said:

And the fear that Corbyn would be a disaster...i can't personally remember a non-disastrous British Prime Minister.

Consider why this is. No matter who ends up PM, at least a third of the electorate will brand him/her a disaster. More to the point, at least half of the media will also do so.

Add to that the fact that those complaining are necessarily always the loudest (on social media, in the press, in the pub etc), and it's easy to see why people conclude that all PMs are a complete disaster.

The thing is...Cameron has been branded the same, for example, but he's left the country (not necessarily individuals) doing much better than it has at any point this century, he's pulled us out of the unwinnable wars the previous government dragged us into and the Tories are arguably stronger than they've ever been, particularly when viewed relative to the opposition.

I'm not saying he's been perfect, and I'm certainly no supporter of any politician, but my point is that those are things that don't get shouted out in the press and on Facebook, and that's why any analysis of such things would always conclude that every PM has been a failure.

ThePrettyDamned

digitalscream said:

paulads said:

And the fear that Corbyn would be a disaster...i can't personally remember a non-disastrous British Prime Minister.

Consider why this is. No matter who ends up PM, at least a third of the electorate will brand him/her a disaster. More to the point, at least half of the media will also do so.

Add to that the fact that those complaining are necessarily always the loudest (on social media, in the press, in the pub etc), and it's easy to see why people conclude that all PMs are a complete disaster.

The thing is...Cameron has been branded the same, for example, but he's left the country (not necessarily individuals) doing much better than it has at any point this century, he's pulled us out of the unwinnable wars the previous government dragged us into and the Tories are arguably stronger than they've ever been, particularly when viewed relative to the opposition.

I'm not saying he's been perfect, and I'm certainly no supporter of any politician, but my point is that those are things that don't get shouted out in the press and on Facebook, and that's why any analysis of such things would always conclude that every PM has been a failure.

Indeed. 

The same is true of healthcare. I remember a study revealing the UK had the best end of life care in the world, and just a few weeks later the news were reporting that reform was needed because its awful and below par. 

So what's the truth? Sadly, people don't want to hear the good bits. 

digitalscream

ThePrettyDamned said:

Indeed. 

The same is true of healthcare. I remember a study revealing the UK had the best end of life care in the world, and just a few weeks later the news were reporting that reform was needed because its awful and below par. 

So what's the truth? Sadly, people don't want to hear the good bits. 

There's no money or attention to be gained by supporting the status quo. Simple, really

paulads

The point that i was making with the remark that was quoted was that the idea of Corbyn as PM seems to fill some people with dread...as if we demand only the highest of standards from our political leaders.

I'd like to think someone, someday would fancy a crack at running this country for the benefit of all of it's people.

I honestly think Cameron was a disaster. I thought Gordon Brown was too. Blair even more so. John Major and Margaret Thatcher likewise.

I wish for better. Not just for myself, but for everyone. Or at least for as many as possible. Call me a fool, if you like.

Give me a good Prime Minister and I'll happily say "they're good"

holnrew

paulads said:

The point that i was making with the remark that was quoted was that the idea of Corbyn as PM seems to fill some people with dread...as if we demand only the highest of standards from our political leaders.

I'd like to think someone, someday would fancy a crack at running this country for the benefit of all of it's people.

I honestly think Cameron was a disaster. I thought Gordon Brown was too. Blair even more so. John Major and Margaret Thatcher likewise.

I wish for better. Not just for myself, but for everyone. Or at least for as many as possible. Call me a fool, if you like.

Give me a good Prime Minister and I'll happily say "they're good"

John Major is the best PM there's been in my lifetime. I have a lot of respect for him. I think we'd have been better off with him and Clarke as chancellor in 97

ICBM

So who is the last non-disastrous PM?

Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee seem the only real candidates...

Heartfeltdawn

TTony said:

MrBump said:

I personally hope it heralds the end of tribal politics.  I don't think that the left vs right argument holds water any more

Completely agree.  

Our current Lab/Cons tribalism is based on the outdated us v them social divisions that probably came to an end - with a few notable exceptions - sometime in the 80s/90s.  That divide dates from the origins of UK politics as we'd recognise it, with the industrial revolution and the introduction of factory workers vs factory owners.  To be fair, the workers needed to unions and needed sensible representation of their interests.  

Be interesting to debate what signalled/caused the end of that nice & simple us v them arrangement (perhaps when unions stopped representing the reasonable interests of their workers, perhaps when union power was dismantled with Thatcher, perhaps with the rise of globalisation and the remoteness of "them"), but that's another thesis.

Unfortunately, whilst I agree that tribal politics is pretty ineffective now, I can't see it being replaced with anything better until we (the electorate) stop thinking in those terms.  Chicken/egg?

Tribalism has evolved. Some of the old hands at the Revolutionary Communist Party started up Spiked and embraced a form of libertarianism. Breitbart versus the left wing activist groups like Occupy and BLM are tribal in nature. 

Part of me is starting to think that the focus on race and gender is there to divide the lower and middle echelons of society. Keep them arguing about gender neutral shithouses, the glass ceiling for women, and men's rights, and stop them becoming united and demanding better rights for all workers who aren't at the top of the tree. 

digitalscream

ICBM said:

So who is the last non-disastrous PM?

Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee seem the only real candidates...

It seems that the only way to achieve "non-disastrous" status is to please all of the people, all of the time.

Given that all of the people have mutually exclusive requirements in order to be pleased...I suspect the best that's possible is to change the exclusive definition of "disastrous" as "being nuked from the face of the planet". Avoid that, and I suppose you can count it as a job well done.

paulads

ICBM said:

So who is the last non-disastrous PM?

Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee seem the only real candidates...

I'm just speaking of my own personal experience...I was 11 when Mrs Thatcher came to power...I didn't want to comment on what I didn't live through as an adult.

    

Jalapeno

holnrew said:

paulads said:

The point that i was making with the remark that was quoted was that the idea of Corbyn as PM seems to fill some people with dread...as if we demand only the highest of standards from our political leaders.

I'd like to think someone, someday would fancy a crack at running this country for the benefit of all of it's people.

I honestly think Cameron was a disaster. I thought Gordon Brown was too. Blair even more so. John Major and Margaret Thatcher likewise.

I wish for better. Not just for myself, but for everyone. Or at least for as many as possible. Call me a fool, if you like.

Give me a good Prime Minister and I'll happily say "they're good"

John Major is the best PM there's been in my lifetime. I have a lot of respect for him. I think we'd have been better off with him and Clarke as chancellor in 97

Wis'd - he faced down the "bastards" in his own party, and Rev Ian Paisley, started the National Lottery, won a general election against the odds & commentators, and returned UK to positive balance of debt - then Blair & Brown frittered it away and fucked everyone's pensions (except Civiol Servants' of course).

ICBM

I agree that Major was the best of a bad lot.

For what it's worth I was 11 when Thatcher came to power as well - but I was 23 when she left, so I don't feel unqualified to have an opinion on her.

Danny1969

Jalapeno said:

holnrew said:

paulads said:

The point that i was making with the remark that was quoted was that the idea of Corbyn as PM seems to fill some people with dread...as if we demand only the highest of standards from our political leaders.

I'd like to think someone, someday would fancy a crack at running this country for the benefit of all of it's people.

I honestly think Cameron was a disaster. I thought Gordon Brown was too. Blair even more so. John Major and Margaret Thatcher likewise.

I wish for better. Not just for myself, but for everyone. Or at least for as many as possible. Call me a fool, if you like.

Give me a good Prime Minister and I'll happily say "they're good"

John Major is the best PM there's been in my lifetime. I have a lot of respect for him. I think we'd have been better off with him and Clarke as chancellor in 97

Wis'd - he faced down the "bastards" in his own party, and Rev Ian Paisley, started the National Lottery, won a general election against the odds & commentators, and returned UK to positive balance of debt - then Blair & Brown frittered it away and fucked everyone's pensions (except Civiol Servants' of course).

That's pretty much as I remember it ....... kind of made me think, has there been a decent Labour leader in my lifetime ? I don't think there has to be honest

digitalscream

Danny1969 said:

Jalapeno said:

holnrew said:

paulads said:

The point that i was making with the remark that was quoted was that the idea of Corbyn as PM seems to fill some people with dread...as if we demand only the highest of standards from our political leaders.

I'd like to think someone, someday would fancy a crack at running this country for the benefit of all of it's people.

I honestly think Cameron was a disaster. I thought Gordon Brown was too. Blair even more so. John Major and Margaret Thatcher likewise.

I wish for better. Not just for myself, but for everyone. Or at least for as many as possible. Call me a fool, if you like.

Give me a good Prime Minister and I'll happily say "they're good"

John Major is the best PM there's been in my lifetime. I have a lot of respect for him. I think we'd have been better off with him and Clarke as chancellor in 97

Wis'd - he faced down the "bastards" in his own party, and Rev Ian Paisley, started the National Lottery, won a general election against the odds & commentators, and returned UK to positive balance of debt - then Blair & Brown frittered it away and fucked everyone's pensions (except Civiol Servants' of course).

That's pretty much as I remember it ....... kind of made me think, has there been a decent Labour leader in my lifetime ? I don't think there has to be honest

With that said, I'm not convinced that Labour have been more broken or ineffective as opposition for as long as I remember.

I generally don't feel particularly warm about the idea of a Labour government given the economic damage they tend to do, but as Cameron said recently...the country does need them to be effective, or at the very least a strong opposition.

paulads

digitalscream said:

ICBM said:

So who is the last non-disastrous PM?

Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee seem the only real candidates...

It seems that the only way to achieve "non-disastrous" status is to please all of the people, all of the time.

No. Just to wish to.

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Thangam Debbonaire

She needs to GET IN THE SEA.

paulads

ICBM said:

For what it's worth I was 11 when Thatcher came to power as well - but I was 23 when she left, so I don't feel unqualified to have an opinion on her.

I figured Mrs T to be disastrous. Despite only being 22 when she left

Brad

digitalscream said:

paulads said:

And the fear that Corbyn would be a disaster...i can't personally remember a non-disastrous British Prime Minister.

Consider why this is. No matter who ends up PM, at least a third of the electorate will brand him/her a disaster. More to the point, at least half of the media will also do so.

Add to that the fact that those complaining are necessarily always the loudest (on social media, in the press, in the pub etc), and it's easy to see why people conclude that all PMs are a complete disaster.

The thing is...Cameron has been branded the same, for example, but he's left the country (not necessarily individuals) doing much better than it has at any point this century, he's pulled us out of the unwinnable wars the previous government dragged us into and the Tories are arguably stronger than they've ever been, particularly when viewed relative to the opposition.

I'm not saying he's been perfect, and I'm certainly no supporter of any politician, but my point is that those are things that don't get shouted out in the press and on Facebook, and that's why any analysis of such things would always conclude that every PM has been a failure.

Completely agree on the first two points.

Attacking the most vulnerable of our society with the bedroom tax and the plan to cut disability benefits for 600,000 people. Well he had to make savings somewhere eh?

If he took us out of two unwinnable wars, he then flew head first into Libya, (another wonderful example of Western intervention) making the same mistakes as said unwinnable wars, but without the decency to even try and stick around to help with the aftermath. Not to mention foaming at the mouth, desperate to arm some rather dubious Syrian 'rebels' in order to look the big statesman on the world stage.

If the Tories are stronger, it's certainly not because of Cameron. The Lib Dems getting into bed with the Tories was a disaster for the party, Labour was never going to happen with Miliband at the helm and as for the Corbyn situation... It's almost like Cameron has tried to see how much he could fuck up his party and still keep power...

Oh I forgot... the EU Referendum.  

I think the above is enough to call his tenure a disaster. 

However, if he has done anything of merit, I would like to hear them and will gladly adjust my appraisal of him. However I hold him in the same contempt as the other PM's of my politically conscious lifetime, so it might be wasted on me :-)   

   

digitalscream

Brad said:

If the Tories are stronger, it's certainly not because of Cameron. The Lib Dems getting into bed with the Tories was a disaster for the party, Labour was never going to happen with Miliband at the helm and as for the Corbyn situation... It's almost like Cameron has tried to see how much he could fuck up his party and still keep power...

Oh I forgot... the EU Referendum.  

I think the above is enough to call his tenure a disaster. 

However, if he has done anything of merit, I would like to hear them and will gladly adjust my appraisal of him. However I hold him in the same contempt as the other PM's of my politically conscious lifetime, so it might be wasted on me :-)   

Your first judgement is based on an unknowable hypothetical (what would've happened without the Lib Dems being weak and Labour imploding), and your second is projecting something that we can't know the consequences of (positive or negative). Don't get me wrong, I personally think Brexit is a massive mistake, but still...we don't know yet.

This is exactly my point, though; viewed through any narrow lens, it's possible to draw any desired conclusion from current or recent circumstances. That narrow lens is almost always personal prejudice - for example, your contempt for all the other recent PMs. In other words, cognitive bias.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, because it's human nature Doesn't change the fact that it exists in all of us, though, and at least recognising it leads to getting closer to a balance.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Thangam Debbonaire

She needs to GET IN THE SEA.

There are several within Momentum last month who would have been quite happy to see her entering the sea, preferably having been tossed off the Severn crossing. 

Brad

digitalscream said:

Brad said:

If the Tories are stronger, it's certainly not because of Cameron. The Lib Dems getting into bed with the Tories was a disaster for the party, Labour was never going to happen with Miliband at the helm and as for the Corbyn situation... It's almost like Cameron has tried to see how much he could fuck up his party and still keep power...

Oh I forgot... the EU Referendum.  

I think the above is enough to call his tenure a disaster. 

However, if he has done anything of merit, I would like to hear them and will gladly adjust my appraisal of him. However I hold him in the same contempt as the other PM's of my politically conscious lifetime, so it might be wasted on me :-)   

Your first judgement is based on an unknowable hypothetical (what would've happened without the Lib Dems being weak and Labour imploding), and your second is projecting something that we can't know the consequences of (positive or negative). Don't get me wrong, I personally think Brexit is a massive mistake, but still...we don't know yet.

This is exactly my point, though; viewed through any narrow lens, it's possible to draw any desired conclusion from current or recent circumstances. That narrow lens is almost always personal prejudice - for example, your contempt for all the other recent PMs. In other words, cognitive bias.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, because it's human nature Doesn't change the fact that it exists in all of us, though, and at least recognising it leads to getting closer to a balance.

Is it based on an unknowable hypothetical though? To certain extent I agree, but did anyone at the time really think the coalition was going to end well for the Lib Dems? The moment Clegg sold out his tuition fee promise, (about 5 minutes into coalition) he and the Lib Dems never recovered, regardless however many Tory policies they claimed to have blocked. Were the Lib Dems ever strong? Apart from kicking Charles Kennedy to the curb perhaps...

You are quite right, we don't know the implications for Brexit and we may not know them for quite some time. I was a reluctant remainer, but I'm willing to see what happens as this is the situation we find ourselves. But I wasn't projecting the consequences of Brexit for the nation at all, I was discussing the consequences for Cameron personally. What is known and was widely talked about at the time was the massive political risk for Cameron to force the referendum so soon after winning power. That is not the narrow lens of personal prejudice. He paid the price, it was a disaster for him that reflects poorly on this tenure.

Although to contradict myself on reflection, in a perverse way perhaps the Tories are stronger now. But I stand by my opinion (ok, personal prejudice ya got me there ;-) ) that he didn't make them stronger by his political acumen, unless the joke really is on the rest of us...

Hindsight is a wonderful thing (or a bitch). After Iraq, any PM will always be judged retrospectively on military intervention, in a negative light and that can come across as personal prejudice I agree.

But it's not personal prejudice to criticise the intervention in Libya for example. I thought it was a bad idea at the time and it's been proved to be the case. It's learning the lessons of history and it was clear that Cameron wanted his pound of flesh at any cost. The Kosovo conflict is seen as a successful military intervention under Blair's watch that brought stability to the region and saved a lot of people from ethnic cleansing, many of whom joined me at high school until hostilities calmed. Who am I to argue with that (i don't), even though my own 'personal prejudice' is to oppose military intervention more often than not. But then Blair did Iraq...

Personal prejudice is disliking Cameron because I'm working class and he went to Eton which isn't the case. I only dislike him because of his policies and I feel the bad things far outweigh the good. If you think I need a more balanced view on Cameron, please share some things that will broaden my perspective because I'm not too proud to change my opinion. But I need something a little more solid than being told I look through a narrow lens, so broaden it ;-) 

They say history is written by the victors, and objectively speaking I just don't think Cameron will get to write his own entry.