Labour, can they sink any lower?

holnrew

I hate that people say Cameron was a "one nation" Tory, he wasn't at all. Far more in common with Thatcher than Macmillan

Chalky

Worth remembering that Thatcher and Blair were both successful and popular in their early years. And that Major was not - he was seen as weak and ineffectual. Churchill was not as highly regarded in his own country in 1945 as he is now.

Its now fashionable to rewrite history and praise Major.  I wonder why.

ICBM

Chalky said:

Worth remembering that Thatcher and Blair were both successful and popular in their early years. And that Major was not - he was seen as weak and ineffectual. Churchill was not as highly regarded in his own country in 1945 as he is now.

Its now fashionable to rewrite history and praise Major.  I wonder why.

Not quite true - Thatcher was extremely unpopular in her early years and would have been straight back out again in '83/'84 if she hadn't been handed a lifeline by General Galtieri.

It was only after some of the necessary harm she had to do (which even I would admit is partly true - I just think she went about it the wrong way, and far too far) began to bear fruit in the second term that she became as popular with some people as she was unpopular with others.

In 1945 Churchill was rightly seen as a great and inspiring war leader, but a poor choice for a peacetime PM - luckily, Attlee's apparent lack of inspirational personality didn't stop people voting for him... he turned out to be our best ever PM. I don't think Churchill is that highly regarded as a peacetime PM even now - and he was more of a figurehead than a real leader anyway.

It was certainly true that people couldn't wait to be rid of Major in '97 - in fact Blair went far too far in "Tory-ising" the Labour Party to make them electable, they would have won anyway almost no matter what they did. But in hindsight, Major wasn't really that bad - certainly better than Brown or Cameron, and only less good (but also much less bad) than Blair.

Fretwired

holnrew said:

I hate that people say Cameron was a "one nation" Tory, he wasn't at all. Far more in common with Thatcher than Macmillan

You mean Blair MK2. Cameron wasn't a conservative at all. He was left of centre like Blair. He was a weak, vain idiot.

The UK needed Thatcher so she'll get my vote. Far from perfect, but she dealt with the annual blackmail from likes of Red Robbo and the Scargill and got rid of the loss making state owned industries. The heavy industries were buggered by the unions - shipbuilding refused to adapt and the workers were on strike so ship owners bought ships in Korea and Japan. It would have mattered who was in power - these industries would have vanished as countries with a lower cost base industrialised.

Thatcher's biggest mistake was to leave areas hit by high unemployment to rot rather than diverting funds to create new jobs in emerging industries. Places like Corby are only now recovering.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Cameron wasn't a conservative at all. He was left of centre like Blair.

Except that Blair wasn't left of centre.

axisus

Chalky said:

Its now fashionable to rewrite history and praise Major.  I wonder why.

I think his stock went up when we found out that he'd be shagging that hottie Edwina Curry on the side.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Cameron wasn't a conservative at all. He was left of centre like Blair.

Except that Blair wasn't left of centre.

Blair was to the left of the Tories when he was in power.

lloyd

digitalscream said:

ICBM said:

So who is the last non-disastrous PM?

Winston Churchill and Clement Attlee seem the only real candidates...

It seems that the only way to achieve "non-disastrous" status is to please all of the people, all of the time.

Given that all of the people have mutually exclusive requirements in order to be pleased...I suspect the best that's possible is to change the exclusive definition of "disastrous" as "being nuked from the face of the planet". Avoid that, and I suppose you can count it as a job well done.

Although post war, Churchill was booted out with a disastrous campaign, great man and leader that he was he was booed at some rallies and there was a feeling amongst the general population that he was a pissed up, upper class toff, which in many ways he was.

So if it can happen to Churchill, it can happen to anyone, not to defend the politicians of today, but they're under constant scrutiny and they'll all make mistakes of one degree or another-those that are not fans will whip up the mistakes and use them to bat them over the head with (all sides guilty of this).

Fretwired

Corbyn has made a popular move .. he intends to nationalise the Great British Bake Off so it can remain on the BBC. The man has the common touch.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Cameron wasn't a conservative at all. He was left of centre like Blair.

Except that Blair wasn't left of centre.

Blair was to the left of the Tories when he was in power.

Perhaps, but he certainly wasn't left of centre. New Labour were definitely authoritarian moderate-right, not left at all.

lloyd said:

Although post war, Churchill was booted out with a disastrous campaign, great man and leader that he was he was booed at some rallies and there was a feeling amongst the general population that he was a pissed up, upper class toff, which in many ways he was.

Exactly - he was a great war leader, and we were very lucky to have him at the worst moment in our national history for at least a century. He wasn't really a good PM, even during the war - most of the actual running of the country was done by others, especially Attlee as his deputy.

Brad

Blair wasn't left of centre at all. When Blair stepped down, I remember William Hague being asked 'what made Blair such a difficult political opponent?'.

His answer? 'He is a Conservative in Labour clothing'. 

The problem I think is the production line of identikit politicians. The term two sides of the same coin often springs to mind. 

Like him or loath him Corbyn is different, or is trying to do things differently. The established order in the Labour ranks don't like this. Perhaps it is a throwback to the dark days of Labour, but it's in sharp contrast to the political landscape of the past 20 years. 

To answer the original question I think Labour can sink as low as they need to. Self preservation is king. 

Chalky

I take your points @ICBM but you are also highlighting @lloyd's point - that the performance of a leader is all based on individual opinion at that point in time.

My memory of Thatcher is that she was popular in her early years.  I remember working with old boys in the 70s who never liked Churchill and others who thought he was the greatest Englishman who ever lived.

Trying to say which PM was good and which was bad is like judging football teams - you aren't going to get a concensus easily, and if you do its pretty meaningless as its such an arbitrary choice. A great deal of study has concluded that Thatcher was a great leader of huge influence - I'm sure you and I both know people who would argue against that view with their dying breath!

Axe_meister

The problem with Corbyns new way of doing politics is that nobody else is doing it. Like communism/socialism it does not work when you are trying to compete with others not following the same doctrine.
He is preaching to the converted.
The thing with new labour in the beginning when Gordon was being prudent our economy was great.
If you took out the war and Gordon had stayed on his original path Labour may still be in government.
As to Cameron I actually don't think he was that bad yes he took a risk with the referendum partly to try and stop the UKIP rise and to finally quash the debate within the Tory party. Alas it back fires. But he stood up for gay rights and increased the minimum wage.

ICBM

Chalky said:

A great deal of study has concluded that Thatcher was a great leader of huge influence - I'm sure you and I both know people who would argue against that view with their dying breath!

I wouldn't. There's no question at all that she was a great (or at least strong) leader with huge influence - which carries on to the present day.

She just also happened to be heartless and wrong.

impmann

John Major? Black Wednesday. Arms to Iraq. Failure to defuse NI ("sitting down with Mr Adams... would turn my stomach"). Privatised the railways (good plan, John). Sleaze (he even nailed that moose Edwina Curry).

Jesus Christ - he was a fucking distaster. There was a reason he had the biggest ever defeat in a General Election and the tories had the lowest number of elected MPs EVER on the other side of that election.

Don't believe the revisionist view of history - he seriously, seriously, seriously wasn't a good PM. 

crunchman

impmann said:

John Major? Black Wednesday. Arms to Iraq. Failure to defuse NI ("sitting down with Mr Adams... would turn my stomach"). Privatised the railways (good plan, John). Sleaze (he even nailed that moose Edwina Curry).

Jesus Christ - he was a fucking distaster. There was a reason he had the biggest ever defeat in a General Election and the tories had the lowest number of elected MPs EVER on the other side of that election.

Don't believe the revisionist view of history - he seriously, seriously, seriously wasn't a good PM. 

Major was ok.  The problem was that the Tories had been in power for a long time and got complacent and you ended up with people like Norman Lamont in senior positions, and there were several complete rabid right wing nutters who thought Thatcher hadn't gone far enough.

The big problem is that both sides have gone too far.  The Tories get in and cut too much as a reaction to the massive debt they are left with.  Labour then get in and see the under-investment and then go and spend too much and leave us an economic basket case again and the cycle repeats.

ESBlonde

It was interesting that Churchill was given the boot by the war weary public wanting a new world order. Atlee took power in a landslide and shafted the countries finances for decades. By 1951 Winston won power again in his 80s! The british voting public are fickle and want new/change now. In reality the slow intransigent pace of the civil service makes any elected cabinets wishes hard to enact in a meaningful way.
I saw a photo of the TMs current cabinet (the other fb) with some snide comment about gender balanced blah blah 14 millionairs blah blah. So would people be happier with Tracy from the checkouts and her unmarried mum sister Chell running the countries finances with Big trev and Soli from the bookies?
Are these people under represented in politics, yes but they could change it if they wanted to, it's just, you know....

Reverend

I have enough punk albums to know Maggie was a wrong'un...

Fretwired

Jeremy goes on a charm offensive .. save Bake Off .. ;-)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/20/jeremy-corbyn-suggests-he-wants-to-nationalise-bake-off/

Fretwired

Reverend said:

I have enough punk albums to know Maggie was a wrong'un...

Being anti-Maggie was trendy and sold records ... most of the serious old punks have million pound houses in London ...