Racism - has the meaning become distorted?

hugbot

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

lloyd

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Any links to demonstrate this?

fields5069

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Using management jargon, Propensity To Stop potential criminals? i'm sure there's no way to prove anything, but I think an "even playing field" in that respect is highly unlikely. 

So what? We just assume that something you can't prove is true? We go on reported crime... it *could* be skewed, so we can't trust those numbers... therefore if black people commit the most homocides, that shouldn't be a consideration when evaluating the statistic that they make up more than their fair share of the prison population?

What is the percentage of the USA that is Japanese, and what is the percentage of Japanese people in prison? Can we do the same sum for eskimos as well? Seems like we should cover all bases.

Ha ha, no. I guess it can't be proved or disproved, so an assumption either way needs to be made. I think you're making me out to be more argumentative than I actually am. But not to consider the possibility of skewed stats isn't helping in my opinion.

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Do you think that has much to do with how people act when they're stopped by police?

lloyd

You could consider skewed stats in both directions and to be fair, you need to consider them to be accurate too.

Basically, if you want to make a decision or judgement, you have to trust, to one degree or another the official data or you're (not you) just pissing in the wind and going on gut feelings and opinion, which is bollocks.

hugbot

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2014/09/30/how-the-war-on-drugs-damages-black-social-mobility/

An estimated one-third of black male Americans will spend time in state or federal prison at some point in their lifetime – more than double the rate from the 1970s and over five times higher than the rate for white males.
What’s driving the imprisonment of black men? Arrest data show a striking trend: arrests of blacks have fallen for violent and property crimes, but soared for drug related crimes. As of 2011, drug crimes comprised 14 percent of all arrests and a miscellaneous category that includes “drug paraphernalia” possession comprised an additional 31 percent of all arrests. Just 6 percent and 14 percent of arrests were for violent and property crimes, respectively.

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-0001_all

Maynehead

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Drew_TNBD

The thing is drug dealing carries higher sentences. And if you look at this:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2871399/

The sample included 13,706 White and Black youths between 12 and 17 years of age. Almost 5% of the households received public assistance. Approximately 3.4% of youths indicated selling drugs. Among Whites, rates of drug dealing were 4.5% for males and 2% for females. Among Black adolescent males and females, rates of drug dealing were 6.4% and 1.6%, respectively. Rates of drug dealing did not differ across race.

Now we've seen a bunch of articles such as this:
https://mic.com/articles/140247/new-study-on-drug-use-confirms-what-black-people-have-been-saying-this-whole-time#.Cpauy2fDf

That suggest white people abuse drugs more than black people. But it doesn't account for dealing.

Then you get this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/30/white-people-are-more-likely-to-deal-drugs-but-black-people-are-more-likely-to-get-arrested-for-it/

Which is the suggestion that white people actually DEAL drugs more often than blacks, but that blacks are more likely to get arrested for it. But the report "Excluded from the survey are persons with no fixed household address" and is a single social science study without any coroboration it would seem.

Then you've got quotes from police chiefs:
http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/blacks-disproportionately-arrested-for-marijuana-possession-in-pinellas/2199728

"On Snell Isle, I guarantee you you will not have white kids standing on the corner selling drugs. They will get paged and they will tell you where to meet someone. He may be selling drugs on Snell Isle, but he is doing it, I hate to say it, in a better way."

^ Very interesting article that one.

Drew_TNBD

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

hugbot

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Do you think that has much to do with how people act when they're stopped by police?

No. 

Also, I'd encourage you to think for a second about the things that would have to be true for that to be the case. You'd have to assert that:

1) All races get stopped at equivalent rates regardless of race. 

2) Police are in the habit of letting drug offenders walk, once drugs have been discovered on their person, but...

3) Black people stupidly mouth off a lot more, which means they don't. 

lloyd

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Why does it have to be down to racial discrimination in society?

I don't think any race is genetically predisposed to committing crime.

It surely has more to do with social norms within your community, Asians earn on average more than any other racial group in the US, that's down to hard work, valuing education and choosing degrees that put you in the high earning jobs. Nothing to do with genetics, skin colour or racism.

Individuals coming from single parent families are more likely to become criminals and the black community is overrepresented in this area, I'm not sure how this could be down to racial discrimination?

lloyd

hugbot said:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2014/09/30/how-the-war-on-drugs-damages-black-social-mobility/

An estimated one-third of black male Americans will spend time in state or federal prison at some point in their lifetime – more than double the rate from the 1970s and over five times higher than the rate for white males.
What’s driving the imprisonment of black men? Arrest data show a striking trend: arrests of blacks have fallen for violent and property crimes, but soared for drug related crimes. As of 2011, drug crimes comprised 14 percent of all arrests and a miscellaneous category that includes “drug paraphernalia” possession comprised an additional 31 percent of all arrests. Just 6 percent and 14 percent of arrests were for violent and property crimes, respectively.

http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/quicktables/quickconfig.do?34481-0001_all

Ta.

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Do you think that has much to do with how people act when they're stopped by police?

No. 

Also, I'd encourage you to think for a second about the things that would have to be true for that to be the case. You'd have to assert that:

1) All races get stopped at equivalent rates regardless of race. 

2) Police are in the habit of letting drug offenders walk, once drugs have been discovered on their person, but...

3) Black people stupidly mouth off a lot more, which means they don't. 

Well it isn't me who is saying it. It's the police.

hugbot

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Do you think that has much to do with how people act when they're stopped by police?

No. 

Also, I'd encourage you to think for a second about the things that would have to be true for that to be the case. You'd have to assert that:

1) All races get stopped at equivalent rates regardless of race. 

2) Police are in the habit of letting drug offenders walk, once drugs have been discovered on their person, but...

3) Black people stupidly mouth off a lot more, which means they don't. 

Well it isn't me who is saying it. It's the police.

Huh? No, you said it.

The link you posted suggested that black dealers get caught because they do it from the street corners not the suburbs like whites. But that doesn't say anything as to how races act once stopped by police. You brought that up.  

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

hugbot said:

Drew_TNBD said:

fields5069 said:

Drew_TNBD said:

strtdv said:

Having said that, there are clearly still major issues with institutional racism. For instance 12-13% of the population of the USA is black, but they make up 40% of the prison population, which is more than white people who make up 64% of the population. Black people make up 80% of those on death row, and 95% of prosecutors in states which have the death penalty are white.

Out of interest, do you have a breakdown on which races commit the most violent or severe types of crime?

You'd have to go on reported crime, which itself could be skewed towards a particularly racial group.

How could reported crime be skewed towards (or away from) a particular racial group?

Drugs crime its fairly easy, because drugs offences only become a "crime" if anyone gives a shit enough to report it as one and only become a felony crime if the court decides to prosecute it as one. Most races do drugs at an equivalent rate (with the highest rates for certain drugs; cocaine, LSD Meth, going to whites) but black people get sent down for it disproportionately more.

Do you think that has much to do with how people act when they're stopped by police?

No. 

Also, I'd encourage you to think for a second about the things that would have to be true for that to be the case. You'd have to assert that:

1) All races get stopped at equivalent rates regardless of race. 

2) Police are in the habit of letting drug offenders walk, once drugs have been discovered on their person, but...

3) Black people stupidly mouth off a lot more, which means they don't. 

Well it isn't me who is saying it. It's the police.

Huh? No, you said it.

The link you posted suggested that black dealers get caught because they do it from the street corners not the suburbs like whites. But that doesn't say anything as to how races act once stopped by police. You brought that up.  

Well no, it was a question. There was no inference on my part. The three things you listed, those are the things that the police say.

hugbot

Which police? 

Drew_TNBD

hugbot said:

Which police? 

Well generally all police. They'll say things like "race is not a factor in our arrest record" which is essentially what you're getting at with point 1. Point 2, it's anecdotal, but we've all heard about people being let off when they're caught with tiny amounts of weed, and your 3rd point I don't believe is accurate. But that Florida newspaper report I posted is one example of the police effectively saying that there are OTHER reasons than race as to why the arrest records are the way they are.

Maynehead

Drew_TNBD said:

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

Well my point is actually that regardless of whether the crime stats are attributed to racism in the justice system (leading to skewed rates of prosecution) or racism in other parts of society (causing skewed rates of poverty and therefore crime), it all points at the existence of racism and the effects it could have.

Arguing about where exactly the racism exists is moot, as it's so widespread that it's impossible to pin down to a particular sector.

lloyd

Maynehead said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

Well my point is actually that regardless of whether the crime stats are attributed to racism in the justice system (leading to skewed rates of prosecution) or racism in other parts of society (causing skewed rates of poverty and therefore crime), it all points at the existence of racism and the effects it could have.

Arguing about where exactly the racism exists is moot, as it's so widespread that it's impossible to pin down to a particular sector.

Again, why does the skewed poverty rates have to be down to racism?

Drew_TNBD

Maynehead said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

Well my point is actually that regardless of whether the crime stats are attributed to racism in the justice system (leading to skewed rates of prosecution) or racism in other parts of society (causing skewed rates of poverty and therefore crime), it all points at the existence of racism and the effects it could have.

Arguing about where exactly the racism exists is moot, as it's so widespread that it's impossible to pin down to a particular sector.

It matters when a claim is made. When making claims typically we would wantwant ALL the information, not NONE of the information. It's not moot. Because if racism in 2016 is limited to a few twatty congregations in the deep-south, and not the all pervasive eye of sauron like you're saying, then that changes the entire debate. It stops being about race and starts being about bigger things - like whether the drug war should've been initiated in the first place!