Racism - has the meaning become distorted?

Maynehead

lloyd said:

Maynehead said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

Well my point is actually that regardless of whether the crime stats are attributed to racism in the justice system (leading to skewed rates of prosecution) or racism in other parts of society (causing skewed rates of poverty and therefore crime), it all points at the existence of racism and the effects it could have.

Arguing about where exactly the racism exists is moot, as it's so widespread that it's impossible to pin down to a particular sector.

Again, why does the skewed poverty rates have to be down to racism?

Because the alternative is to say that there IS some kind of racially dependent factor that causes a particular race to be poorer/more criminally active/less hard working/whatever.

Now that could potentially be seen as racist, unless there is some scientific backing to this notion?

Drew_TNBD

Maynehead said:

lloyd said:

Maynehead said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Maynehead said:

But surely you're all arguing a moot point... If the figures are skewed, that shows racial discrimination in the judicial system, if they're not skewed, and black people are actually committing more crime, then surely that would be indirectly attributed to racial discrimination elsewhere in society, resulting in the high crime figures for a particular racial group.

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

Well you've got a problem there. Drug abuse and dealing is heavily assosciated with poverty and deprivation. If you take the Washington Post numbers I posted earlier that say white people deal more drugs, then it stands to reason that those white people are subject to more poverty and deprivation than their black counterparts, leading them to wallow in drug abuse.

The two narratives don't seem to gel well together.

Well my point is actually that regardless of whether the crime stats are attributed to racism in the justice system (leading to skewed rates of prosecution) or racism in other parts of society (causing skewed rates of poverty and therefore crime), it all points at the existence of racism and the effects it could have.

Arguing about where exactly the racism exists is moot, as it's so widespread that it's impossible to pin down to a particular sector.

Again, why does the skewed poverty rates have to be down to racism?

Because the alternative is to say that there IS some kind of racially dependent factor that causes a particular race to be poorer/more criminally active/less hard working/whatever.

Now that could potentially be seen as racist, unless there is some scientific backing to this notion?

Things that affect poverty level that are not dependent on race:

- Single mother family
- Living alone
- Not having a job
- Addiction
- Age
- Lack of skills
- Depression
- Mental illness
- Being male or female
- Coming from an abusive childhood

Amongst others.

You'd have to account for each and every one of these before jumping to racism.

The official national poverty rate represents an average over the entire population, and does not really indicate who is well-off and who is worse off. Blacks and Hispanics, for example, have poverty rates that greatly exceed the overall average. The poverty rate for all blacks and Hispanics remained near 30 percent during the 1980s and mid-1990s, while the overall poverty rate was closer to 15 percent. Thereafter the poverty rates of these two groups began to fall, though they remained high.

In 2000, the rate for blacks dropped to 22.1 percent and for Hispanics to 21.2 percent—the lowest rate for both groups since the United States began measuring poverty. Meanwhile, the overall poverty rate was about half those rates, at 11.3 percent. By 2014, however, the poverty rate for blacks had risen to 26.2 percent and for persons of Hispanic origin, who can be of any race, the poverty rate was up to 23.6 percent. The rate for the overall population was 14.8 percent.

The 2014 poverty rate for Asians was 12.0 percent, and whites not of Hispanic origin had a poverty rate of 10.1 percent. See Figure 2 for long-term changes in the U.S. poverty rate by racial or ethnic group, which reveals a striking trend among blacks, whose poverty rate decreased from 41.8 percent in 1966 to 26.2 percent in 2014. Nonetheless, the poverty rate among blacks is more than two times greater than the 12.7 percent poor rate for whites.

http://www.irp.wisc.edu/faqs/faq3.htm#discriminate

So you'd need to figure out why the disparity. Could it be that blacks are more likely to come from single mother families, as well as living alone, as well as coming from an abusive childhood? Let's say it is... doesn't point to racism. Points to a confluence of environmental factors. So then you'd need to establish that those factors are due to racism - are blacks more likely to come from single mother families because of racism? Are they more likely to live alone because of racism? Are they more likely to come from an abusive childhood because of racism?

As you can see... there is no end to how deep you can go with the racism angle. And it gets us nowhere. No answers are ever found, just more questions. Maybe it's time society took a different approach and put the emphasis back on the individual, or heck... even communities and parents!

lloyd

Aye what Drew said, I mentioned the single parent family effect earlier as well as Asians tendencies to value education almost to a fault as reasons for criminality and wage gaps.

I think instantly thinking its down to racism or down to a races predisposition therefore a racist bias is unhelpful, the facts are as we know them (apart from the drug data given above) are what they are and we'd be better served focussing on the factors that affect crime stats rather than blaming it on racism, as that approach leads to people blaming others for people's actions, which is not right.

Fretwired

Racism alive and well in the UK. Racist stickers saying “rapefugees not welcome” have appeared on lampposts and bus stops around South Shields. They show the logo of the far-right group North West Infidels

Local residents expressed anger at the signs. One said that she had reported the “awful” stickers to police and the council but more were appearing.

When the North West Infidels were approached for comment, a member tweeted: “I’m glad they’re up and being seen.” John Smith, neighbourhood police inspector for South Shields, said that the stickers would not be tolerated.

Drew_TNBD

^ But at least people will actually call those fuckwits out.

lloyd

Fretwired said:

Racism alive and well in the UK. Racist stickers saying “rapefugees not welcome” have appeared on lampposts and bus stops around South Shields. They show the logo of the far-right group North West Infidels

Local residents expressed anger at the signs. One said that she had reported the “awful” stickers to police and the council but more were appearing.

When the North West Infidels were approached for comment, a member tweeted: “I’m glad they’re up and being seen.” John Smith, neighbourhood police inspector for South Shields, said that the stickers would not be tolerated.

Racism will always be a thing, it's an insensitive and racist poster.

As you've said there condemnation from locals and police looking into it. 

Looking at North West Infidels Facebook, they have 1240 likes and can drum up a few hundred fuckwits to chant anti Islamic shite a few times a year.

Systematic racism it is not, these posters will be rightly condemned by pretty much everybody in the country, including at every official level.

strtdv

Maynehead said:

Unless of course you are inferring that black people are genetically predisposed to committing crime?!

I think that's the Australians

Fretwired

Drew_TNBD said:

^ But at least people will actually call those fuckwits out.

Yep - they're right wing and white.

I see that Ghandi is now being called out as a racist. Professors at the University of Ghana have called for the removal of a statue of Gandhi from the campus grounds in Accra. The academics say that Gandhi, who has been praised by public figures for leading India's non-violent movement to freedom from British colonial rule during the mid 20th century, had a "racist identity".

"At the end of the day, we need images of ourselves for our own psychosocial well-being and not images of those who called us savages... May Gandhi fall that Africa may rise!"

Who next I wonder?

Maynehead

lloyd said:

Aye what Drew said, I mentioned the single parent family effect earlier as well as Asians tendencies to value education almost to a fault as reasons for criminality and wage gaps.

I think instantly thinking its down to racism or down to a races predisposition therefore a racist bias is unhelpful, the facts are as we know them (apart from the drug data given above) are what they are and we'd be better served focussing on the factors that affect crime stats rather than blaming it on racism, as that approach leads to people blaming others for people's actions, which is not right.

Somehow I came across as saying that racism is to blame for everything... That's not what I think at all. I agree that there are cultural factors involved too, but these things tend to be self reinforcing. To break out of the cycle we need to attack from all fronts, and I think, along with a lot of other issues, education is the key.

lloyd

Maynehead said:

lloyd said:

Aye what Drew said, I mentioned the single parent family effect earlier as well as Asians tendencies to value education almost to a fault as reasons for criminality and wage gaps.

I think instantly thinking its down to racism or down to a races predisposition therefore a racist bias is unhelpful, the facts are as we know them (apart from the drug data given above) are what they are and we'd be better served focussing on the factors that affect crime stats rather than blaming it on racism, as that approach leads to people blaming others for people's actions, which is not right.

Somehow I came across as saying that racism is to blame for everything... That's not what I think at all. I agree that there are cultural factors involved too, but these things tend to be self reinforcing. To break out of the cycle we need to attack from all  fronts, and I think, along with a lot of other issues, education is the key.

Aye fair enough.

Education as always, is key, along with the family unit, one big issue from what I can gather amongst certain black communities is those that try to educate/better themselves are accused of "acting white" which must have a draining and negative impact on them.

BigLicks67

I once met a woman who thought that only white people could be racist.

Also, I was in a work meeting a few years back where a manager said that there where too many middle aged white faces in the room.  I assumed from this that she meant that middle aged white men are incapable of making reasonable, impartial decisions.

All this just ends up clouding the serious issue of real racism, people being harassed or attacked in the street or roughed up/ mistreated by the Police.

Evilmags

People are all different. The only minority I care about is the individual. If you behave like a cunt then I don't give a fuck about your skin, likewise if your cool. Unless you would get upset if your own kid was not your race you probably don't have an issue. I've been in ralationships with black amd yellow people and it's only the reaction of others that's any different.  

digitalscream

You can't really take the USA's incarceration rate as indicative of the severity of crimes by any demographic. The Three Strikes laws massively skew things; three felonies in Texas, for example, and you get a life sentence. Given that the definition of "felony" is whether the sentence is more than one year (one year or less is a misdemeanor), and that there's a demonstrated bias towards giving non-whites higher sentences, that automatically means that more black folk will be in prison for much, much longer regardless of the severity of the crime.

This is what happens when you combine institutionalised racism with a privatised prison system.

capo4th

Maybe those people are not very intelligent at evading the law enforcement officers therefore they are more likely to get caught for their criminal activity and incarcerated.