Sturgeon - true voice of the Scots?

olafgarten

I think it's childish for the EU to 'punish' us and making the governments lives harder. It's just them trying to save a sinking ship by trying to pull everyone else underwater with them. 

RandallFlagg

I posted this back in August, this is the more pressing problem Sturgeon should be focussing on:

"The Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland (GERS) publication has been brought forward from March next year.

The figures included will cover the financial year 2015-16.

They are likely to show the Scottish balance sheet still clearly in the red, even including a share of oil. 

Last year's GERS figures were gloomy, depicting Scotland with a £15bn deficit."

And Sturgeon want's Independence? Good luck with that. Taxes would need to go up significantly. She'll no doubt be banging about the risk of Brexit to Scotland diverting eyes from the shit on the doormat."

BigLicks67

I'm still surprised that the Scots didn't vote for independence, however, it does seem illogical to want to be part of a European Union while at the same time rejecting being part of another union, the UK.

ICBM

I don't think it's a contradiction. It's reflective of the relationships - or at least the perceived ones - within the two unions.

In practice, I'm fairly sure most Scots who want independence don't want to cut all ties with England but would prefer a looser form of union, much more like that between the nation states within the EU. Whether that becomes easier or harder with the UK out of the EU, I don't know.

The EU's constant drive towards 'ever closer union' is actually a problem for many pro-EU Scots too. Their childish behaviour recently is not helping either - it does seem that Junker and Tusk are very petulant, small-minded people.

Chalky

At least Maggie and Blair waited until they proved themselves in the job before becoming mad, arse-water-belching nutters.

Crying when talking about children at the end of the conference? Truly vomitous.

ICBM

Her tendency to overdo it does become annoying even to some of us who broadly support her. If she's not careful it will backfire.

Chalky

And now she is STILL claiming Scotland can have a separate deal with the EU!  Even after the EU have made it clear that that isn't possible!  She has serious sanity issues.

Neil

AliGorie said:

what I get from my m8s up there is that the snp are seen as a tool, playing UK political game - by the UK’s rules - to achieve a goal, very doubtful it will be allowed to happen but ya never know, i.e. hold it or be allowed to win it.
If it did the Scots would adopt a more ’Scandinavian’ style of government, social and political culture.
Imagine if we had ’next door’ a country treated it’s citizens like human beings, don’t think that’d go down well with HRH plc and workers (subjects).
after our Euref.

Fine words  butter no parsnips   - they couldn't afford it.

They already have a worse deficit than Greece and it is only "the auld enemy" that is keeping them semi solvent.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/720541/SNP-Scotland-economy-debt-Sturgeon-Greece-EU-public-spending-deficit

Take away money from England and Scotland would be a basket case.

I'm afraid a lot of Scots are living in a dream world re independence.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

An interesting fact about the SNP losing is that a greater proportion of Scots voted for independence than UK voters did for leaving the EU. (38% vs 37%.)

Make of that what you will...

I don't think you can draw any meaning from  that,  other than  Scottish residents on average cared more about  independence than the EU - comparing the actual independence sentiment can't work - it's 2  referenda with different questions , different electorates, and different turnouts
as background the  Scottish turnout was 67% for  the EU ref; 84% for the  indyref

It's an old chestnut to use the tactic of  reducing the apparent mandate by multiplying  vote received by turnout percentage
Like saying  that the Uk govt does not have a mandate because only 30% or whatever voted for them. There are several parties,  so we are unlikely to ever see over 50% of eligible voters voting for the govt

As you know, you can't make firm assumptions about what those who abstained would have voted
  

ToneControl

AliGorie said:

If it did the Scots would adopt a more ’Scandinavian’ style of government, social and political culture.
Imagine if we had ’next door’ a country treated it’s citizens like human beings, don’t think that’d go down well with HRH plc and workers (subjects).

how  could that be viable?
Scotland is  currently subsidised by RUK, and is alreay running a huge unsustainable deficit

UK GDP per capita is way behind Sweden & Denmark, and  just over half that of Norway

ToneControl

Jimbro66 said:

Interesting post @Aligorie. As regards Obama you'll recall that he also tried to influence the outcome of the Brexit referendum. There's something about the inflated American ego that can't resist the urge to poke it's unwanted nose in the business of others.

the UK  never did that when we ran the world   ;-)

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Her tendency to overdo it does become annoying even to some of us who broadly support her. If she's not careful it will backfire.

how long can the facade persist of the SNP being "more Labour than the Labour party"?

UnclePsychosis

You have to remember that there's always an element of playing to the crowd with regards a second Indyref. Sturgeon knows that she wouldn't win one right now, but there is a large element of her party that wants it to happen yesterday and so do a lot of people who vote for them.

Jamie Ross wrote quite an interesting piece on it recently. This quote gives you some idea of the tightrope she's trying to walk:

Many of those SNP voters, such as Gary Mitchell, aren’t actually members of the party but have attached themselves to the SNP cause as a means to an end of independence. If Sturgeon is seen to drag her heels on the next referendum, they say that there’s is a very real risk that that the strongest pro-independence voters could abandon her.

“We need away from the tyranny of Westminster and the sooner the better,” Mitchell told BuzzFeed News. “The people who live in Scotland deserve to control what happens in their lives. [Sturgeon] is playing this her own way, but if she doesn’t bring us independence – and soon – the SNP will be gone. A lot of these voters are here for independence, she’d better remember that and she better be careful.

“I know a lot of members who would revolt if there’s not a referendum very soon. You need to remember that a lot of these people don’t give a toss about the SNP, they care about independence.”

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamieross/the-snp-is-locked-in-a-battle-between-its-head-and-heart-ove?utm_term=.geKv49zY4#.gmMOGXB2G

I can't pretend I'm a fan of the SNP, but its helpful to understand the politics involved in trying to hold together a party thats held together almost solely by independence. 

ICBM

ToneControl said:

ICBM said:

An interesting fact about the SNP losing is that a greater proportion of Scots voted for independence than UK voters did for leaving the EU. (38% vs 37%.)

Make of that what you will...

I don't think you can draw any meaning from  that,  other than  Scottish residents on average cared more about  independence than the EU - comparing the actual independence sentiment can't work - it's 2  referenda with different questions , different electorates, and different turnouts
as background the  Scottish turnout was 67% for  the EU ref; 84% for the  indyref

It's an old chestnut to use the tactic of  reducing the apparent mandate by multiplying  vote received by turnout percentage
Like saying  that the Uk govt does not have a mandate because only 30% or whatever voted for them. There are several parties,  so we are unlikely to ever see over 50% of eligible voters voting for the govt

As you know, you can't make firm assumptions about what those who abstained would have voted

I know. I just think it's an interesting statistic, when anyone talks about a 'majority' in either case. You can't draw an accurate conclusion from them.

It's wrong to say that a government can't have a majority mandate though - actually the last coalition did, for all the good it did... it just needs a better electoral system. Fixing that would be a major step forward - for one thing, it would have meant that the SNP didn't win 95% of seats in Scotland with only 50% of the vote.

Jalapeno

I do prefer her to the insufferable pompous windbaggery of Alex Salmond

Evilmags

Her economic legacy will harm a lot of Scots.  She is a nasty demagogue who should not be let near a budget. 

Mkjackary

Jalapeno said:

I do prefer her to the insufferable pompous windbaggery of Alex Salmond

See im not actually sure, I used to think that, but now she is just as bloody annoying, if not more than Alex was when he was in power

Evilmags

Alec Salmon at least ran the place without needing a Greek style deficit. Demagoguey with pork barrel is a classic recipie amd fairly easy to spot. Add to that authoritarian tenancies,  shutting down half of the country's nightlife with a ludicrous 3 am closing time, turning education into indoctrination (and we'll behind England). If it was not for the nationalism and a population that is either willfully ignorant of the economic mess she is creating, the horrible long term effects that will have and as a Scotsmen I feel prouder of Rab C Nesbitt 

ICBM

Evilmags said:

as a Scotsmen I feel prouder of Rab C Nesbitt 

The real one, or Jim Sillars?

I agree about Salmond and Sturgeon too. Salmond could be pompous, but I at least thought he was competent. His most serious mistake was to be taken in by Trump over the golf resort... I thought he was a better judge of people than that.

ewal

I like Nicola Sturgeon and I think she stands up well when compared to the shower of shit currently running the UK. Although my fellow Thistle supporter Mhairi Black impresses me even more - her views on the the whole independence subject and nationalist label are very closely aligned to mine:

"... The Conservative Party’s mask as ‘a party of the common people’ has slipped to reveal the xenophobic, often racist, nationalist, ugly face beneath. The very fact that they now openly share the same values and policies as Ukip says it all.

Immediately, I know that unionists will cry hypocrisy when they see that I have labelled the Conservative Party as ‘nationalist’, so let me explain. I myself have never identified with the word ‘nationalist’ and if I am honest, the thing that irritates me most is that I am automatically labelled as such purely because I am in the SNP. I believe in independence purely for practical reasons rather than emotional ones. I want Scotland to have total control and power over its own policies, government and direction of travel. I believe the SNP is the best vehicle to achieving that goal, however, after independence, everyone’s vote is up for grabs (including my own), and that can only be considered a healthy thing.

I like so many others am incredibly proud to be a part of the independence movement. Mainly for its inclusive, pro-migration and diverse nature. I love the fact that Scotland is, as a whole, a welcoming country filled with people from different backgrounds embracing each others cultures. I am extremely proud that these are also the values of the SNP. The SNP label these characteristics as ‘civic nationalism’, others label it as ‘culturalism’. I personally label it as simply being a good and kind citizen. And yet, continually we allow our opponents and the mainstream media to label us as ‘divisive’, ‘petty’ and small minded ‘nationalists’, motivated by some form of ugly racism.

So let me be clear, I quite frankly could not care less about where I was born or where others were born. I have no care for what nationality people consider themselves as, after all, where you are born is down to total, random, pot luck. I do however care when that ‘nationalism’ is used as a motivation or an excuse for racist, bigoted and small minded policy, and this week we have seen the worst of it.

The Conservative Party’s conference has unleashed ugly and downright scary rhetoric that I was brought up to believe was to be left in the past. I am not exaggerating when I say that the policies being brought forward are reminiscent of early 1930s Nazi Germany.

This was best conveyed by James O’Brien on LBC Radio when he told listeners this was an extract from Rudd’s Conservative conference speech:

“For the state should draw the sharp line of distinction between those who, as members of the nation, are the foundation and support of its existence and greatness, and those who are domiciled simply as earners of their livelihoods of there.” Only for O’Brien to admit the quote was not from Rudd’s speech but rather Mein Kampf, the book written by Hitler during his time in prison before becoming German Chancellor.

We see the headlines that Amber Rudd and her cronies are attacking businesses over their willingness to hire ‘foreigners’, even going as far as to say that businesses must list all foreign workers. There have also been worrying reports that schools are now listing and logging the nationalities of all their ‘foreign’ pupils. What’s next? Making them wear a badge or carry documentation so they are easily identified? All I can think of is an extract I was taught at primary school when I was learning about WWII (apologies that I cannot remember who the quote is attributed to):

“I sometimes fear that people think that fascism arrives in fancy dress worn by grotesques and monsters as played out in endless re-runs of the Nazis. Fascism arrives as your friend. It will restore your honour, make you feel proud, protect your house, give you a job, clean up the neighbourhood, remind you of how great you once were, clear out the venal and the corrupt, remove anything you feel is unlike you...”

Fascism creeps up on us, and what we have seen this week can only be described, and must be described as the first steps of that.

We have seen people proudly professing, “British jobs for British people”. I have no problem with governments providing jobs for their citizens, in fact, I spend most of my days actively encouraging and fighting for it – but that is they key difference. Government should be providing jobs for people IN Britain, not simply ‘British’ people.

Our opponents label and criticise us as ‘divisive nationalists’ for speaking logic and sense, and yet when they themselves come out with blatantly small minded policy based on nationality, it is labelled ‘patriotic’?

Even more concerning is the fact that Michael Fallon has announced he will launch 150 new cadet units attached to state schools and claims this militarisation will, “instil British values”.

I saw a video by Akala for The Guardian which correctly dissects these ‘patriotic’ and ‘British’ values the Conservatives seem so keen to put at the heart of their policies. He states that we are taught British values and this is the reason we have won so many societal victories over the years, from the suffragettes to the abolition of child labour, to workers rights overall, when in reality that could not be further from the truth.

We have won these victories due to the determination and hard fought campaigns against the ‘British’ elites. If history is viewed accurately, we see that often these progressive, civil, anti-racist movements were labelled as ‘anti-British’ or ‘anti-state’ at the time and yet now they are portrayed as being the result of inherent British values as opposed to genuine political struggle.

Akala embodies precisely my feelings on the matter when he says, “Whilst I am not a nationalist, how national peoples and cultures see themselves undoubtedly has real-world implications. The question in these tumultuous times is: which British traditions will you be drawing on? The one that reinforces race and class oppression, or the one of relentless activism that secured for us the very fragile freedoms we have today?”

The only ‘nationalism’ I can see is from the British elites and right-wing political groups. The only racism that I can see is coming from politicians scapegoating ‘foreigners’ for the genuine difficulties so many communities in the UK are facing precisely at the hands of the Tories and their obsession with austerity. Does it sound familiar? History is littered with the establishment, the elites and the rich abusing and exploiting society and the individuals in it and then pointing the finger of blame at foreigners.

If there is one piece of hope that can be taken from the events of this week, is the number of people who are speaking out. The number of people who are calling out these politicians on their hypocrisy and we must continue to do so.

When Ruth Davidson claims that the Yes Movement tries to, “rile English [people] to win independence”, let us proudly refute it. When Theresa May labels us as, “divisive”, let us remind her that we are not the ones who want to segregate workers.

I am proud that Scotland has sent a clear message that all are welcome here. I am proud that so many Scottish businesses have outrightly said they will refuse to provide any form of lists of foreign employees, and I am proud that the Scottish government will give them our full support in doing so."