Live situation, using the PA

ESBlonde

Ah @andyoz we must have been typing at the same time so we agreed separately!

The lack of knowledge from people that have PA systems in pubs and clubs is shocking, there is no education in place for people that can afford gear. Indeed I'd go as far as to say some 'professionals' are clueless. The fact that they can use something on a tablet that is powerful doesn't mean they can mix for shit. I know one local hire company that lost a good regular pestigious account when a Beatles tribute act sounded all bass like some millenial karaoke artist. 

andyoz

Bingo, yeah the quality of sound at 'small room' Pub gigs does my head in. The mad thing is that even the stuff at the cheaper end of the scale can sound good when used 'within it's limits'.  Most is pushed flat out and sounds shit.

Best (good) one I saw recently was a Beatles cover band to about 100 people.  They only used the PA for vocals and the rest was backline (or maybe a subtle bit of instruments through the PA).  Had the place jumping...they got away with it because the Beatles weren't about overblown drums but a good example of not over complicating things.

Too many bands try to 'hide' behind the PA and assault the audience with pure volume.

John_P

All the gear no idea is increasingly the norm with pa's. I did a gig yesterday where he had tons of rack processors and a digital mixer via iPad (doing to same job I assume) but didn't know how to di and only realised the kick wasn't working two songs in when I pointed it in the right direction,  stage was a mess of unlabelled cables when a stage box and snake would have sorted it - that would be as cool as lots of flashing light though.     
I'd rather have a minimal pa and someone who has a clue - 90% of pub gigs just need a tiny tiny bit of band adding in to give a bit of spread alongside the backlline and make sure the vocals are clear. 

andyoz

John_P said:

   
I'd rather have a minimal pa and someone who has a clue - 90% of pub gigs just need a tiny tiny bit of band adding in to give a bit of spread alongside the backline and make sure the vocals are clear. 

That sums it up...

Danny1969

Some of the mixs I encounter are truly shocking but sometimes I'm not sure if it's user error or they do actually want it to sound like that ! 

andyoz

Most sound guys are underpaid and sleep deprived...sometimes just getting 'sound' is a bonus for them.  Not a particularly nice industry unfortunately.

Alot of mixes I hear lose the snare and the hi-hat (normally swamped by the unnecessary loud bottom end) so the groove has gone before you've even started.

Also I do wonder why I see 2 x 18" subs cabinets in small pub gigs (two a side).  IMO nice 15" subs are more musical sounding and you don't need to really chase the last 15-20Hz of bottom end for music (but that just my opinion).

bignorm

In the 3 piece rock band, I use a Hughes & Kettner 36 grandemeister with two 1x12 cabs 
1 cab for my back line monitor and the other sits under the bass amp as a back line monitor for the bass player, who used to whinge coz he couldn't hear me.
The amp is also red box Di'd into the pa. 
The backline is balanced to the level of the drumkit and we get an even balance on stage.
Floor monitors are set for vocals. 
Out front, everything goes through the pa just to keep things balanced. It sounds more complicated than it is and in reality it's pretty quick to set up and soundcheck. 

In the 5 piece band the sound is much more complicated. 
As there's a keyboard player involved and all 5 of us sing, I just use the H&K amp with one 1x12 cab as my back line monitor red box Di'd into the pa for front of house. 
That band has IEM monitoring with a four way mix but I hate the sound of my guitar in my mix so I have everything else but my guitar and hear it from my back line monitor. 

Not so easy to set up, but once we've sound checked everything sounds pretty good and it doesn't matter how bad the room is we still get a consistent mix unaffected by the surroundings. we played Exeter cathedral one year and the stage was swamped in reverb from the stone walls but we still had a great mix. 

professorben

Plectrum said:

Brian's hearing was damaged by going out in a racing car without earplugs NOT by singing in a loud rock band.

Chicken vs egg

lets say both didn't help. 

thomasross20

ICBM said:

thomasross20 said:

I think it's the way to go, as long as you have a good monitor.

You do, it's called the amp .

Use the amp to generate the tone and volume you need for the mix on stage, do the rest with the PA.

I like the SM57. It just works.

Is it good for vox, too? 

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Is it good for vox, too? 

Yes, although it doesn't have a pop shield. It's sometimes preferred for brighter-sounding voices because it has a little more top-end than the SM58.

Also by the President Of The United States.

Cirrus

ICBM said:

Yes, although it doesn't have a pop shield. It's sometimes preferred for brighter-sounding voices because it has a little more top-end than the SM58.

Also by the President Of The Untied States.

Not if Trump gets in! No way would he stand for speaking into a Mexican microphone!

keir

Most gigs I play have been in fairly small venues and often the majority of the sound comes from the amps but the cabs are miced through the pa. I think it's mostly to balance out the sound across the venue, e.g. If I'm stage left my pa sound is panned slightly to the end opposite side.

Often the mics were given to use at venues are battered and some random brand, for example I've had copy sm58s hung in front of my amp so it was side on. I've never seen an engineer come back and adjust a mic placement in over 100 gigs. Obviously mic placement can make a big difference in the tone captured. 

I've bought a pair of e906s to take a bit more control over the sound through the pa now and we've been doing some recording with them over the last few weeks and I'm very pleased with them. 

Danny1969

I was doing a cheeky little gig in a pub yesterday afternoon. As I had another gig to get to at 6pm we went in as light as poss .... real ol'skool setup .... just vocals in the PA, nothing else mic'ed or Di'ed, no in ears or anything. After 3 songs I keep getting told to turn up and it soon reached the point where standing in front of the amp was too loud. I really don't know how the non mic'ers do it gig after gig, basically all I could hear was me and the drums!

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

I was doing a cheeky little gig in a pub yesterday afternoon. As I had another gig to get to at 6pm we went in as light as poss .... real ol'skool setup .... just vocals in the PA, nothing else mic'ed or Di'ed, no in ears or anything. After 3 songs I keep getting told to turn up and it soon reached the point where standing in front of the amp was too loud. I really don't know how the non mic'ers do it gig after gig, basically all I could hear was me and the drums!

Angling the amp so it isn't pointing at you can help a lot. If you didn't have monitors for the vocals even that can be tricky though.

ash96

Danny1969 said:

I was doing a cheeky little gig in a pub yesterday afternoon. As I had another gig to get to at 6pm we went in as light as poss .... real ol'skool setup .... just vocals in the PA, nothing else mic'ed or Di'ed, no in ears or anything. After 3 songs I keep getting told to turn up and it soon reached the point where standing in front of the amp was too loud. I really don't know how the non mic'ers do it gig after gig, basically all I could hear was me and the drums!

I agree with this. I mic up literally any point I can. The problem is, guitar signal is blocked out surprisingly easily. You stood in front of your amp, then 3/4 rows of people in and your guitar volume has probably dropped by about 1/4 or something for the rest of the room.

I did a wedding gig once where we didn't mic stuff up, playing in front of a killer volume on my amp, boosted it for the solo, went out in the crowd for the Sweet Child o Mine solo and literally couldn't hear it. Went back to the stage and it was deafening.

For me, In an ideal world I mic up everything for nearly any gig. We regularly do small wedding gigs (100-300 people) and we'll mic up guitar, kick drum, Overhead mic, DI bass, and put vocals through the PA. Its not because of the volume, more spread and so that the levels are balanced and all coming from the same source.

As for guitar amps sounding better cranked so not wanting to use the PA, I think a lot of guitarists have way overpowered amps for the gigs they're doing. 

ICBM

ash96 said:

As for guitar amps sounding better cranked so not wanting to use the PA, I think a lot of guitarists have way overpowered amps for the gigs they're doing. 

Totally agree, and in my experience the worst culprits are the "small amp" people who use about 15W amps with no master volumes, and crank them. These small amps are often very directional too. For many gigs a cranked 5W amp is still too much.

That's why I prefer to use much bigger amps and not crank them - more control, a bigger tone which projects better without actually being as loud, and usually less directional. Apart from things like early Boogies, admittedly…

The problem is that the volume scale is so completely non-linear, if you're comparing a cranked amp to one that isn't, that it's quite hard to really get your head around how little power you actually need if you're going to - or how much you do if you want true clean headroom.

shaunm

Since starting this thread I have been out and bought a mic and we (the band) have agreed that putting everything through the PA is the way to go. 

@ICBM I am one of those small amp users. I don't crank it all the way, more likely half the volume but after that point it just gets more compressed anyhow. 
The funny thing is this week in the studio I had the master volume down to a "reasonable" level and the tone was belting, really good. Lesson learned, amp down a bit and use the PA