Croydon Tram Crash

capo4th

Aslef, the train drivers' union, said it was "clear that the lack of adequate safety systems were at the root of this dreadful accident".

How about the dickhead driver doing 50 in a 12. .........

Wanker unions will probably go on strike in support of the speeding driver who clearly thought he was Michael Schumacher in tram world. 

He he is gong to jail and it's gonna cost millions! 

crunchman

Unless he had a medical issue he deserves to go to jail (for a long time), but the fact remains that there should be some form of speed controlled signalling.  It was put in place on the tube after the Moorgate crash which was more than 40 years ago.  A recent tram system like this should never have been built without it.

richardhomer

crunchman said:

Unless he had a medical issue he deserves to go to jail (for a long time), but the fact remains that there should be some form of speed controlled signalling.  It was put in place on the tube after the Moorgate crash which was more than 40 years ago.  A recent tram system like this should never have been built without it.

He's been charged with manslaughter and is currently out on bail, according to the news I listened to on the way home from work.

There is a device which the driver is required to hold to establish they are conscious, I understand - which if they are not effectively stops the tram.

The 'Black Box' suggests he applied the brakes prior to the bend - but not enough to reduce the speed sufficiently.

It seems to me that the driver was at the very least, reckless....

crunchman

There appears to be very little doubt that he was reckless.

They have a "Dead Man's Handle" on the Tube as well.  The difference is that in slow speed areas on the Tube, the signals don't clear unless the train is under a set speed.  If they go through a red signal then the emergency brakes are applied automatically.  After the Moorgate crash in 1975, which killed 43 people, they were not sure whether the driver had a medical condition, or had committed suicide, but they put in controls to make something like that impossible in the future.  In this day and age, controls like that should be in place on any train or tram line.

holnrew

crunchman said:

There appears to be very little doubt that he was reckless.

They have a "Dead Man's Handle" on the Tube as well.  The difference is that in slow speed areas on the Tube, the signals don't clear unless the train is under a set speed.  If they go through a red signal then the emergency brakes are applied automatically.  After the Moorgate crash in 1975, which killed 43 people, they were not sure whether the driver had a medical condition, or had committed suicide, but they put in controls to make something like that impossible in the future.  In this day and age, controls like that should be in place on any train or tram line.

Especially with trams going on roads

FelineGuitars

If the tram drivers drive as recklessly as the Croydon bus drivers it's no surprise .

As a Croydon resident I have used the tram often and can attest that that curve is extremely tight, and was alarmed to see tweets from the week before where people said about that curve being taken too quickly and it feeling like wheels were leaving the track. I wonder if some of the drivers were using it like a roller coaster.

If a cyclist/motorcyclist or skateboarder does a trick or wheelie it's bad enough but in most cases they will be the ones coming off worst. If the driver of a bus or tram does similar they are risking the lives of all on board.

Of course the driver would say I blacked out or fell asleep rather than I was being a pratt.

Detectives investigating the tragic incident are said to be going through his phone records after it was claimed he was typing a text at the time some news outlets have reported.

capo4th

It sounds like drivers were playing a game of dare as to who could get the trams to go fastest on two wheels round the bend. Conditions were extremely wet that day and probably played a part in the tram leaving the tracks combined with high speed and the sharp bend.

stickyfiddle

Honestly this is just another argument in favour of driverless trams, trains and tubes, isn't it? 

crunchman

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly this is just another argument in favour of driverless trams, trains and tubes, isn't it? 

True, but the RMT would like to keep a "driver" on board when all he does is close the doors.

At the moment, I'm not sure if the public would like to go on a train with no human in charge of it.

Once driverless cars are here then public opinion will change.

stickyfiddle

crunchman said:

stickyfiddle said:

Honestly this is just another argument in favour of driverless trams, trains and tubes, isn't it? 

True, but the RMT would like to keep a "driver" on board when all he does is close the doors.

At the moment, I'm not sure if the public would like to go on a train with no human in charge of it.

Once driverless cars are here then public opinion will change.

It hasn't hurt the DLR and multiple tube line in London, which have a man onboard but he's not driving the trains, just doing doors and hitting emergency buttons. 

There are loads of successful fully-driverless systems already working. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automated_urban_metro_subway_systems

ICBM

If the idea is to save jobs and go to one-man operation I'd actually be much happier with a proper guard (not a 'customer supervisor') on the train than a driver - the driver is little more than a human robot these days, with there being so much safety automation. A guard isn't stuck in the cab. The only important thing the driver can do that automation can't is look out for unexpected danger ahead, and there's rarely enough time to stop a train anyway.

stickyfiddle

Completely agree. 

Either have the driver driving the thing, or don't. But these days a bloke in the cab is neither cost efficient OR safer, so the only reasons to keep him is public perception (which can be sorted with careful PR demonstrating the stats on safety) and the issue of what we do with all the humans once robots have taken over all the menial jobs (which goes FAR beyond rail networks and shouldn't be an issue for the rail people to solve by themselves)

Chalky

Funny how bus drivers have no automated backup but don't screech round bends.

crunchman

Doesn't the DLR still have a "Train Captain" on board?

A lot of lines on LU are already automatically operated, and the rest will be inside of 15 years unless Sadiq Khan's fares freeze hits the finances too hard. 

It is the issue of having no-one on board that is currently contentious.  The unions would insist that someone needs to be on board for safety in an emergency situation.  The last I saw on this was that most of the public agreed with them.  As I said above, public opinion is likely to change when driverless cars become commonplace.

If you could get rid of the drivers then you could probably save around £300 million per year on LU's running costs - although you might lose some of that by needing extra staff on platforms.

ICBM

Chalky said:

Funny how bus drivers have no automated backup but don't screech round bends.

No, but they do have an alarming tendency to drive double-deckers under single-decker-clearance bridges with worrying regularity.

crunchman

Chalky said:

Funny how bus drivers have no automated backup but don't screech round bends.

There are plenty of bad bus drivers in London.  You should try cycling here.

The traffic won't let them go stupidly fast, but the way a lot of them drive is awful.

Chalky

ICBM said:

Chalky said:

Funny how bus drivers have no automated backup but don't screech round bends.

No, but they do have an alarming tendency to drive double-deckers under single-decker-clearance bridges with worrying regularity.

A bus driver did point out to me that "we don't choose the route, we aint bloody taxi drivers!"

He said the only time he's known it happen is when some numpty has told a newbie to take a double-decker because the usual single-deckers have gone u/s.

Heartfeltdawn

No automated backup but they still have accidents. 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/ladroke-grove-crash-woman-left-trapped-under-bus-after-it-swerved-onto-pavement-a3398256.html

stickyfiddle

Chalky said:

ICBM said:

Chalky said:

Funny how bus drivers have no automated backup but don't screech round bends.

No, but they do have an alarming tendency to drive double-deckers under single-decker-clearance bridges with worrying regularity.

A bus driver did point out to me that "we don't choose the route, we aint bloody taxi drivers!"

He said the only time he's known it happen is when some numpty has told a newbie to take a double-decker because the usual single-deckers have gone u/s.

I can't tell if you're making excuses or just commenting, but surely anyone in charge of a bus should have the foresight to remember how many floors it's got before they go under a low bridge - newbie or not!

siremoon

crunchman said:

They do have a point about getting some kind of automatic braking installed on the trams.  Yes the driver was to blame (unless he had a blackout with no previous medical history of them), but with systems like they have on the Tube or mainline rail he would have just got the sack rather than killing 7 people.

All of those thinking that this could not happen on the main line railway are mistaken.

A substantial number of speed restrictions on the main line railway have nothing at all except an advance warning board to prevent over speeding.  If the required reduction in speed is 30% or more then the warning board has AWS but this is essentially a reminder system and only acts if it is ignored.  Once acknowledged the train speed is solely down to the driver.  Some speed restrictions have TPWS which will put the brakes in if the speed is excessive and a couple of routes have ATP which will do the same.  However for the vast majority of speed limits the main line railway relies on the driver knowing the line inside out and regulating the train speed accordingly.  Those that wonder why on earth they get paid so much might like to reflect on that.