Cab education and recommendations required

imalrightjack

Hi,

Having recently bought a Mesa Boogie Mark V:25, I feel I now ought to get a cabinet that befit its quality. I currently own only a Palmer 1 x 12 loaded with a V30. It's fine but I presume the amp would sound better with a better cabinet, possibly a 2 x 12.

How much difference do the woods, etc. make? Are we talking big differences or incremental gains? What are the key factors you would consider?

I tend to play bluesy/jazzy/rock OR full on metal sounds. I understand that open back is better for the former, closed back for the latter. Are there any cabinets that have an easily-pulled panel to make them open?

Recommendations and thoughts welcome.

Cheers!

MikeB

Something From Zilla cabs would fit the bill. They do extra panels to go from open to closed backs for an extra tenner. 

Pretty much universally recommended. 

simonk

I use mine with a 1x12 Mesa wide body (C90) open back and a 2x12 Zilla hybrid back with Creambacks. Due to the Zillas size and lack of portability the Mesa cab gets more live action, and really it's a perfect match for the amp (as much as I like the woodiness of greenbacks/creambacks). On stage I tend to stand the Mesa cab on its side to make a cool looking mini stack.

imalrightjack

Both on my list.  The Zilla cabs look very nice - plus cost effective and British-made.  Anybody got one for sale?

The 1 x 12 Mesa wide body also a natural fit.

olafgarten

It's amazing how you can get a Cab handmade in the UK for less than a Mesa. 

guitarfishbay

It's not though because Westside slap a big markup. Also Mesa speakers are different, to buy a Mesa brand V30 is double the cost of a normal one (again, going through Westside).

I will be honest though having owned 3 Mesa cabs and one Zilla the Mesas were better built (and subjectively I prefer the speakers). The wood is denser and thicker on the Mesas. I was not really that impressed with the Zilla I had (3pc back Super Fatboy), though I think it was an old one (bought s/h). The centre panel rattled on high volume palm mutes, making it unsuitable for me. I think I've seen further rear bracing/re-enforcement on newer ones though which should remedy this. I don't understand how that was ever a suitable design though, took me seconds to figure out it rattled (I cannot stand rattling closed back cabs). The back panel was IMO thin. The back panel on the Mesa cabs I've had weighs a ton in comparison and is way stiffer and thicker.

I'd happily try a beefed up Zilla made to the same spec as a Mesa Recto cab

Deijavoo

I sold my Mesa 2x12 to get my current Zilla. I use mine now as open back and the speakers suit my current amp better but I would also like to run both cabs. The Mesa V30s do seem to be a bit thicker or is that a placebo affect? 

ecc83

From my larnins here and first principles there are a few factors.

25* watts is just about going to push a V30 into thermal compression so two will give you greater ultimate volume.

Ply is the best material because it has a high strength to weight ratio and flexes a bit with the sound pressure. ICBM and others say this adds to the "tone" . Fancy solid woods have no sound quality advantage that I have ever read of, won't be as strong as ply and are not ecologically as sound.

* Unless IC you know it kicks significantly more?

Dave.

ICBM

I think the hardwood cabs I've heard do definitely sound different from ply, but not in a good way - too uneven and with overly obvious resonant frequencies. Some people might like that (see Terrible Amps thread ) but I prefer a balanced tone. Pine is much better balanced but still more resonant than ply, and that's still not always a good thing - it sounds great for compressed clean and low-gain overdrive, but less good for more modern sounds.

Cabinet size, dimensions and bracing make a big difference too, almost as much as being open or closed back.

And believe it or not, the covering can too - if you compare a bare cab to an otherwise identical tolex-covered one it's quite noticeable. Likewise the grille cloth, if it's really thick.

It's all done a bit by rule of thumb and guesswork though - almost no guitar cabs are ever designed on proper acoustic principles, and I'm not sure it would necessarily sound better if they were... it's all very subjective.

JMP220478

Pm'd U re opportunities in Liverpool to try a few cabs inc Zilla SFB 

imalrightjack

Cheers, @JMP220478 A bit far for me right now but appreciate knowing!

Bygone_Tones

you do pay for the brand name when you buy a cab. speakers aside, it is just a wooden box. so decide whether you are primarily interested in how cool it is or how it actually sounds.

if "coolness" doesnt matter then focus on build quality. plywood cabs sound best in my opinion, but more importantly wont break apart like MDF cabs do. and also look at the quality of the plywood, and the thickness of it.

a lot of guitar cab makers use the word  "plywood" in their marketing knowing guitar players are looking for it. Yet they actually use really low grade ply and very thin pieces of it to keep their costs down. The best quality cabs are made from either 15mm or 18mm thick plywood, of a high grade. The type of glue holding the layers of ply together is another factor, but is probably of less importance to guitarists unless you intend to get your cab wet or store it somewhere damp.

Some stuff about wood:

http://woodworking.about.com/od/plywood/p/PlywoodGrades.htm

If you are prepared to scour the DJ section on ebay there are a lot of bargains out there for "uncool" but solidly built, great sounding cabs that are just black. £50 could easily buy you a pair of 2x12's. Then spend the rest of your budget on a killer set of speakers.

if you want something that looks cool and has to be made by a popular guitar amp manufacturer then expect to pay hundreds for it. if you want to spend less, then look at used gear made by obscure brands nobody cares much about.

re zilla cabs, I had one a few years ago and was not impressed with it to be honest. cheap off the shelf parts and cosmetics, made from weedy thin plywood, and small wood screws to hold the speakers in place instead of proper bolts. quality was not a word that came to mind. maybe i just got a bad one, everyone seems to rave about them.

imalrightjack

Interesting comments, @Bygone_Tones  I'm not fixated on any brand but I'm surprised at your comments on Zilla.  Anybody else care to share?

The cab I have is made of 'particle board/MDF baffle', so I presume anything ply is going to be an improvement.  I appreciate your comments on scouring Ebay but, with no idea what I'm looking for, any sample examples would be useful.

I know @JMP220478 owns a Montage - anybody else any thoughts?  Certainly reads better spec than the Palmer:

http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/montage-guitar-cabinets-c-105.html

ICBM

imalrightjack said:

Interesting comments, @Bygone_Tones  I'm not fixated on any brand but I'm surprised at your comments on Zilla.  Anybody else care to share?

The cab I have is made of 'particle board/MDF baffle', so I presume anything ply is going to be an improvement.  I appreciate your comments on scouring Ebay but, with no idea what I'm looking for, any sample examples would be useful.

I know @JMP220478 owns a Montage - anybody else any thoughts?  Certainly reads better spec than the Palmer:

http://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/montage-guitar-cabinets-c-105.html

To be honest I was not that impressed with the two Zilla cabs I've seen either. Speakers fitted with woodscrews as Bygone_Tones said, the grille wasn't very well fitted and it just wasn't as well done as a proper commercial build should be in my opinion - just a bit too close to DIY. That said both were fairly early ones, they may have improved.

I was more impressed with the Lean Business Montage cabs - yes, they're obviously a generic Chinese-made box, probably from the same factory as several other 'no name' brands, but apart from slightly rough vinyl finishing in a couple of places and the usual back panel screws made of cheese, pretty good - especially for the money.

imalrightjack

ICBM said:

I was more impressed with the Lean Business Montage cabs - yes, they're obviously a generic Chinese-made box, probably from the same factory as several other 'no name' brands, but apart from slightly rough vinyl finishing in a couple of places and the usual back panel screws made of cheese, pretty good - especially for the money.

Any other brand suggestions?  Are the Mesas worth bothering with at the cost (I'd be looking pre-owned)?

ICBM

imalrightjack said:

Any other brand suggestions?  Are the Mesas worth bothering with at the cost (I'd be looking pre-owned)?

They are really good... but they're a hell of a price even second hand.

Harley Bentons are fine - they don't come empty, but they're very little more than the value of the speakers, which you can resell if V30s aren't what you want. The whole cabinet is less than you'll often pay for an empty one from some other makers. The models you want are the 'Vintage' ones which are ply, the standard ones aren't. These are some of the ones that may well come from the same factory as the Montages by the way.

Marshalls are OK if you're definitely getting a ply one - you need to know which models and ages for that, apart from the full-size 4x12"s which all are - but again you're paying for the name.

imalrightjack

Thanks, @ICBM Is the quality and sound difference between Montagne/Harley Benton vintage and Mesa anywhere near the price gap?

I definitely don't need a 4 x 12. Suspect I'll stick with 1 x 12 and maybe get a second if I want more. 

JMP220478

Re Marshall 4x12s - not all ply ; check back panel on recent 1960a / b models - some Ive seen are mdf..   Other marshalls ie MG SERIES I believe are mdf throughout. 

Re My Montage - if You want serious low end chug - thinking djent /  7 string / drop C downwards. then get something bigger - I use in covers band playing usual pub classics with a JCA 22 Custom , std tuning and loaded with G12H 70th Anniversary ; cab open back at base by 50mm to avoid any boxiness . 

I also have a Zilla SFB but will leave others to comment - v30/cl80 loaded btw

ICBM

JMP220478 said:

Re Marshall 4x12s - not all ply ; check back panel on recent 1960a / b models - some Ive seen are mdf..   Other marshalls ie MG SERIES I believe are mdf throughout.

Ah - sorry. Yes, the full-size 4x12"s do indeed have particle-board (not MDF as far as I know) back panels, apart from the HW ones. The cabinet shells are ply though. The 1936s used to be MDF apart from the very earliest ones, but have now gone back to being ply (not sure about the back panels), and all the other smaller cabs are MDF.

imalrightjack said:

Thanks, @ICBM Is the quality and sound difference between Montagne/Harley Benton vintage and Mesa anywhere near the price gap?

No. The HB G212V is less than £200 brand new, shipped and containing two V30s. The Mesa Rectifier 2x12" with two V30s is £900. NINE HUNDRED POUNDS. OK, it's slightly better made, and the dimensions are different so it does have a bigger, more resonant sound (ie better if that's what you want). Even second-hand you'll pay at least £400 for one in any kind of tolerable condition. There isn't a two to one difference in quality, let alone four and a half to one.

lukedlb

I would love to be able to cart around a 2x12 or wow a 1x12 instead of my 4x12. 
But they just don't compare especially at bedroom volume: all that headroom and body. But if you're after a thin middy anorexic tone then why waste cash and effort on a larger cab. 

simonk

The Suhr cabs seem on a par with the Mesa's - another costly option though. Closer to home and I have one of @martinw's MJW 1x12 cabs which is excellent. Might be worth keeping an eye out for one.
Another option could be:
http://www.roadkillcabs.co.uk/
I've no direct experience but have considered them before.