Cab education and recommendations required

imalrightjack

Thanks, @ICBM ;

Scathing, @lukedlb, and not very helpful. I presume you play more often than I do and to a higher standard.

@simonk - MJW cabs?

simonk

imalrightjack said:

@simonk - MJW cabs?

http://www.mjwamps.com/

imalrightjack

simonk said:

imalrightjack said:

@simonk - MJW cabs?

http://www.mjwamps.com/

Cheers! Roadkill look decent value.

lukedlb

@Bygone_Tones my mate marco from bologna is very happy with his new addition to his Marshall cab collection. It sounds great. A4x12 68 Marshall if I'm not wrong. 

Dave_Mc

Bygone_Tones said:

The type of glue holding the layers of ply together is another factor, but is probably of less importance to guitarists unless you intend to get your cab wet or store it somewhere damp.

Time to start a cottage industry regluing cabs with proper hide glue?

Worked for those eejits with the custom shop gibsons...

ICBM said:

imalrightjack said:

Any other brand suggestions?  Are the Mesas worth bothering with at the cost (I'd be looking pre-owned)?

Harley Bentons are fine - they don't come empty, but they're very little more than the value of the speakers, which you can resell if V30s aren't what you want. The whole cabinet is less than you'll often pay for an empty one from some other makers. The models you want are the 'Vintage' ones which are ply, the standard ones aren't. These are some of the ones that may well come from the same factory as the Montages by the way.

I think the standard ones are ply too (or at least the 212, some of the other cabs may well not be). I had both, and while I wouldn't want to swear in court that I could correctly identify plywood etc. since i'm not much use at DIY etc., the regular standard g212 looked the same to me on the inside as the g212 vintage- it's ages since i had mine open, but IIRC it looked like wood rather than particleboard (wasn't painted in the inside either, IIRC, which aided in my being able to tell it was wood I need all the help I can get when it comes to DIY ). It's specced as being plywood, too.

JMP220478 said:

Re My Montage - if You want serious low end chug - thinking djent /  7 string / drop C downwards. then get something bigger - I use in covers band playing usual pub classics with a JCA 22 Custom , std tuning and loaded with G12H 70th Anniversary ; cab open back at base by 50mm to avoid any boxiness .

yeah. funnily enough the harley benton cab is actually fairly big- not super-oversized big, but pretty big. unless you're willing to pay a good bit more for an oversized one you could actually do a good bit worse than the HB for brootalz.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

ICBM said:

The models you want are the 'Vintage' ones which are ply, the standard ones aren't. These are some of the ones that may well come from the same factory as the Montages by the way.

I think the standard ones are ply too (or at least the 212, some of the other cabs may well not be).

I may be wrong about the 2x12" - can't remember for sure if I've seen one - the 1x12" is definitely MDF.

Dave_Mc said:

funnily enough the harley benton cab is actually fairly big- not super-oversized big, but pretty big. unless you're willing to pay a good bit more for an oversized one you could actually do a good bit worse than the HB for brootalz.

I was surprised to discover it's the same width as a Marshall 1936 - it doesn't look it, presumably because it's 'chunkier' - slightly deeper and not as tall. I didn't think it was until I put a Marshall head on top of one and found it's exactly the same length.

Sassafras

lukedlb said:

I would love to be able to cart around a 2x12 or wow a 1x12 instead of my 4x12. 
But they just don't compare especially at bedroom volume: all that headroom and body. But if you're after a thin middy anorexic tone then why waste cash and effort on a larger cab. 

Not sure if you're being serious.
If you are, that's nonsense.

Bygone_Tones

lukedlb said:

@Bygone_Tones my mate marco from bologna is very happy with his new addition to his Marshall cab collection. It sounds great. A4x12 68 Marshall if I'm not wrong. 

 Sounds cool, has he got a big collection? I dont think he bought that one from me.

Bygone_Tones

JMP220478 said:

Re Marshall 4x12s - not all ply ; check back panel on recent 1960a / b models - some Ive seen are mdf..   Other marshalls ie MG SERIES I believe are mdf throughout.

They started using mdf backs as standard from 1971 onwards, or particleboard whatever you want to call it. That was the beginning of the decline of build standards on Marshall cabs through the 70's. As they started using less wood, and plastic hardware, MDF here and there. JCM800 series onwards forget it, not in the same league. 

The best quality cabs they made were the basketweave cabs from 68 to early 71 with the metal handles and metal castor cups. Thats why a lot of them still survive today almost 50 years on. A lot of them might look very ugly, or be horribly recovered or stripped and varnished or whatever but the woodwork still survives. Only water damage will kill them.

I have not owned many modern Marshall cabs but a couple of years ago I retolexed a '1960AV' cab. The back panel was made of cheap chipboard and it literally crumbled away in my hands. I had to make a new back for it out of plywood.  I don't know what plywood they use for the main body of the cab but it seems a lot lighter than the wood they were using in the 60's.

If you want to go vintage and dont want to pay crazy prices for old Marshall gear other brands to look out for are the Laney klipp & Dan Armstrong cabs, early Sound City cabs wth the metal "door knocker" handles, Orange/Matamp, Vampower, Sai, were all making good sturdy cabs in the early 70's (in my opinion), and will eat the likes of Zilla for breakfast in terms of build-quality.

ICBM

Bygone_Tones said:

JMP220478 said:

Re Marshall 4x12s - not all ply ; check back panel on recent 1960a / b models - some Ive seen are mdf..   Other marshalls ie MG SERIES I believe are mdf throughout.

They started using mdf backs as standard from 1971 onwards, or particleboard whatever you want to call it.

Particle board, or chipboard - not the same thing as MDF. Particle-board is made from real wood chips mixed with resin, MDF is made from assorted random fibrous material mixed with resin. Particle board is a tonewood compared to MDF .

You only deal with real Marshall cabs though . 

Bygone_Tones said:

That was the beginning of the decline of build standards on Marshall cabs through the 70's. As they started using less wood, and plastic hardware, MDF here and there. JCM800 series onwards forget it, not in the same league.

JCM800s are OK, it's the 900s that aren't. They didn't start using MDF until late in the 800s, for the back panels on the solid-state combos - until then, all the non-ply material was particle board.

The wholesale change to MDF was early in the 900 series - you can find very early 900-series cabs (1936s, 1922s etc) that are ply, but most aren't. They've recently returned the 1936 to ply, not sure about the 1922.

guitarfishbay

If we're talking 4x12s the EVH is worth a look.  I think it might be a bit more square than a Marshall B cab but similar kind of thing and made more nicely than a modern Marshall cab.  Metal handles and all ply.  They sound great.  I had one with stock EVH Greenback speakers, sold it due to slimming down to just my favourite speakers.  I recently bought an empty one and filled it with my favourite speakers (Mesa V30s).  It is pretty awesome.  I'd love to stick a quad of creambacks in it one day.

Bygone_Tones

ICBM said:

Particle board, or chipboard - not the same thing as MDF. Particle-board is made from real wood chips mixed with resin, MDF is made from assorted random fibrous material mixed with resin. Particle board is a tonewood compared to MDF .

Interesting. I always though MDF and particle board were the same, maybe not then. It was definitely chipboard I found on the 1960AV cab though. The really cheap stuff made from large pieces of wood shavings glued together. I've got pics somewhere, I just need to get organised and sort my hard-drive. 

lukedlb

Sassafras said:

lukedlb said:

I would love to be able to cart around a 2x12 or wow a 1x12 instead of my 4x12. 
But they just don't compare especially at bedroom volume: all that headroom and body. But if you're after a thin middy anorexic tone then why waste cash and effort on a larger cab. 

Not sure if you're being serious.
If you are, that's nonsense.

My experience with smaller cabs, smaller speakers, lower output, has been limited options. The amp/speaker has its character and little else. If that character is what you're after, such as a champ or tweed or even a bassman, then you're in luck. Harp players, 50s rock and rollers, enjoy that tone a reduced combo produces. However, I'm much more interested in the options offered playing guitar. I search for the different voices offered by huge headroom and pedal effects. My twin or my bassman or Marshall artiste have their limits and the speaker choice and cab production is all part of that. 
A marshall 45 head from 72 plugged into a 1x12, 2x12, 4x12, 8x10 produce very different voices; speaker choice even more. 
A 1x12 can never have the body of a4x12: all that air space. It just can't be compared. 
I like the comparison to a wind instrument: the guitar is the key pads, the amp is the instrument body, and the speaker cabinet is the bell end. And yeah, I have me a big fat bell end. 
However, playing a 1x12 and a 2x12 together does produce a great tone, similar to how that pedal show often does with their double amps. 
For example: a leslie16 alone is ok but limited due to cab distortion from the styrofoam and Doppler effect meaning there is a volume vomit to the cab rather than the speaker. Play it together with another cab and it sounds wonderful: all the distortion is masked, the low an high signals are full and a lush swirling chorus sweeps around the room. 

lukedlb

Bygone_Tones said:

lukedlb said:

@Bygone_Tones my mate marco from bologna is very happy with his new addition to his Marshall cab collection. It sounds great. A4x12 68 Marshall if I'm not wrong. 

 Sounds cool, has he got a big collection? I dont think he bought that one from me.

Glorious would be apt. Perhaps it was a pinstripe you sold?

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

Dave_Mc said:

ICBM said:

The models you want are the 'Vintage' ones which are ply, the standard ones aren't. These are some of the ones that may well come from the same factory as the Montages by the way.

I think the standard ones are ply too (or at least the 212, some of the other cabs may well not be).

(a) I may be wrong about the 2x12" - can't remember for sure if I've seen one - the 1x12" is definitely MDF.

Dave_Mc said:

funnily enough the harley benton cab is actually fairly big- not super-oversized big, but pretty big. unless you're willing to pay a good bit more for an oversized one you could actually do a good bit worse than the HB for brootalz.

(b) I was surprised to discover it's the same width as a Marshall 1936 - it doesn't look it, presumably because it's 'chunkier' - slightly deeper and not as tall. I didn't think it was until I put a Marshall head on top of one and found it's exactly the same length.

(a) Yeah I think you're right, the cheaper 1x12 isn't ply (or at least not specced as ply anyway, I've never seen on in reality).

(b) LOL, I haven't compared it to a Marshall 2x12 but it seemed to me to be bigger, or at least as big, as all of my other 2x12 cabs apart from my oversized Roadkill. And my Laney Lionheart cab might be a little deeper (but not as long).

lukedlb

Sassafras said:

lukedlb said:

I would love to be able to cart around a 2x12 or wow a 1x12 instead of my 4x12. 
But they just don't compare especially at bedroom volume: all that headroom and body. But if you're after a thin middy anorexic tone then why waste cash and effort on a larger cab. 

Not sure if you're being serious.
If you are, that's nonsense.

@Sassafras could you qualify your comment by defending smaller cabs against larger cabs? There's no need to say I'm speaking nonsense even if my criticism of smaller cabs was harsh. I genuinely believe a 4x12 sounds better than its smaller family, having tried all of the higher quality Marshall cabs. I wish it weren't the case. 

Sassafras

Jeeze! You're like a dog with a bone. That was days ago. Are you just looking for an argument?
Making a sweeping statement like anything other than a 4x12 sounds thin middy and anorexic is nonsense.
All right, you like big cabs, i get it. Doesn't mean that smaller cabs are shit.
I even think some albums have been recorded with small cabs and I also believe that they've been used in live situations although this could just be a rumour I've heard. Must've been really crap gigs though.

Sassafras

Also, you're a gear snob.
I'm not.
I use what works for me.

timmysoft

I used to think 4x12s sounded better, then I tried the Mesa and bogner 2x12s, they're both better than any of the 30+ 412s I've owned! 

My current vertical Mesa 2x12 is the incredible, my favourite cab, just in front of the bogner OS 212. 

Bridgehouse

timmysoft said:

I used to think 4x12s sounded better, then I tried the Mesa and bogner 2x12s, they're both better than any of the 30+ 412s I've owned! 

My current vertical Mesa 2x12 is the incredible, my favourite cab, just in front of the bogner OS 212. 

Ah a Mesa. They'd sound good through a tin can and string to me.

Slapped my express plus 5:25 through my recently restored old 70s 2x12 and it sounded really really good.

A good amp through a good 4x12 will sound very expansive and will bring out the flavour of the amp, but a crap amp through a 4x12 (even a really really good one) will still sound, um, crap. Loud, but still crap.