AxeFX & Kemper - thinking the unthinkable and selling my soul to the devil

kjdowd

Roland said:

As a long term AxeFX user I feel I ought to chip in here.

Jonathanthomas83 said:

 So the question is, where do I start? Do I go Kemper or AxeFX? There's a huge price difference. Anyone local have one I can try out? .... So I've got a lot to think about, can anybody who has experience with these things chime in and lend some advice? 

There is no single answer to the question. It's easy to get draw into discussions about the quality of amp/speaker emulation. My take is that it depends totally on what sort of music you play, what sounds you want, and whether you personally care about the difference in the situation you normally play in (bedroom, studio, pub, etc). 

Things to think about include: 
- Portability. AX8 and Helix win over anything which needs a rack.
- How comfortable you are configuring software.
- Workflow in use, thank you @Drew_TNBD for reminding us of this point.

Things NOT to think about:
- Depreciation. It's electronics. If it has resale value, other than immediate flip, then consider yourself lucky (in the same way as your television)
- Supplier support. Real support is going to come from the user community.

I bought my first AxeFX for its effects, and then discovered that the amp sounds were quite useable. If I was making a decision now then lack of good effects would rule the Kemper out, and I wouldn't go for rack mounted equipment because it's one more thing to carry. My decision would be between the Helix and the AX8

Yep. Agree with all this. I had a straight choice eventually between the Helix and the AX8. I went AX8 because of the larger number of amp models and because I just preferred the sound of the models and FX sufficiently to sacrifice the greater flexibility of the Helix for the sound of the AX8. That said, make no mistake, the Helix sounds fantastic. My quick pros and cons:

AX8
Pros - number of amp models, sound and quality of models and fx, ease of use (primarily with the editor but I also edit on the fly - the amp controls help a lot with this), form factor, reliability (so far!)
Cons - Not as easy to use as the Helix, limited to one amp at a time (although 2 in a patch with X/Y switching), scenes are not as flexible as the Helix (although I've yet to find anything I can't do that I want to), no audio interface, limited i/o compared to the Helix and only one external pedal loop

Of course, a lot of the "cons" of an AX8 go away if you go for full AxeFX rack unit, but I'm inclined to agree with @Roland ; that the better option might be AX8 (and Helix vs AX8 is certainly the fairer comparison).

Helix
Pros - very easy to use (just the best interface I've ever seen), incredibly flexible, audio interface included, loads of I/O, loops for external pedals that work really well, sounds great, you can cram a lot in a patch (inc 2 amps), snapshots are v flexible, it has an expression pedal on board
Cons - limited number of amp models compared to the Fractal stuff, to me doesn't sound quite as good as the Fractal stuff but plenty will tell you it does

Having owned both I also think that the Ax8 feels like a bit of pro audio gear and the Helix perhaps a bit more top end consumer electronics, if that makes sense? However, this is subjective impression only and I have absolutely no insight into failure rates or anything else substantial to support this.

Short answer is, you can't go wrong.

guitarfishbay

In terms of amp sounds there is a good series done by a guy called Mitch Baker on YouTube.

This link should take you to the start of the 3 part playlist.  He compares a lot of different styles of amp, there are always going to be things you could do to make each unit sound better/worse but I think he does a pretty fair overview.



In terms of user interface for the Helix I'd watch some of Drew's videos.  I seem to remember @Jonathanthomas83 has commented about Strymon pedals at some point - some really good comparisons in here and you can see the interface being tweaked in real time 



I'm not actually sure who has done a good run through of the Fractal interface, a lot of videos tend to show the desktop editor.  The AX8 is a bit easier as it has more dedicated controls.  However the AX8 doesn't have as much power as the Axe FX 2, which may or may not be an issue depending on how you intend to use it.  Comparison here - http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=AX8_versus_Axe-Fx_II

digitalscream

Roland said:

Things NOT to think about:
- Depreciation. It's electronics. If it has resale value, other than immediate flip, then consider yourself lucky (in the same way as your television)

This is no different to amps, though. Buy an amp, and its value on the second hand market immediately drops by 30-40%. By comparison, the high-end modellers actually hang on to their value relatively well.

guitarfishbay

digitalscream said:

Roland said:

Things NOT to think about:
- Depreciation. It's electronics. If it has resale value, other than immediate flip, then consider yourself lucky (in the same way as your television)

This is no different to amps, though. Buy an amp, and its value on the second hand market immediately drops by 30-40%. By comparison, the high-end modellers actually hang on to their value relatively well.

This is true but also depends on the type of amp.

There has definitely been a market shift for people wanting versatility.  A number of people now using Kemper/Helix/Fractal units were the people buying 3 and 4 channel 100 watt amps 10 years ago.

So right now lots of really capable, very versatile high wattage heads have very poor resale value right now.  Unless it is flavour of the month (like when Friedman hit the market).

It seems more portable, basic valve combos do a bit better in resale by comparison, as a broad generalisation

guitarfishbay

Trying again to link to the Helix vs Strymon stuff

https://www.youtube.com/user/amberience/videos

Jonathanthomas83

@guitarfishbay those videos are fantastic, thank you!

I'm shying away from the AX8 and floor stuff, I think I'd rather a rack, and would definitely prefer the full functionality of the AxeFX rack. If I'm giving up all my gear, I want the best I can get in whatever product I choose. 

@Roland and @kjdowd thank you for the very informative posts. Your experience of the AxeFX stuff is valuable. 

I honestly don't think I'm going to get away from the fact that I may need to do the 30 day thing. Shame!

BintyTwanger77

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Thanks guys, that's good to know. There's a million and one demo's featuring high gain sounds, so I know they're good.

It's AxeFX v Helix for me, I want something that will be groundbreaking and allow me to find new sounds. As much as I love the idea and interface of the Kemper, I feel like I need more than an amp profiler. I also don't want to have to buy profiles of amps with pedals in front of them. The Helix and Axe both have the ability to add pedals, and I like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I watched a video today about Misha Mansour and how he said he wanted something more than what amps were giving him and that's something I've always found. I always wanted a more pristine version of what I was getting with amps. The only amp I've never found that with is my current one. However, the high gain sounds need to be had by adding pedals, and sometimes that's easier said than done and I don't think I'm where I want to be as far as high gain is concerned - clean is superb though. Then there's the inconsistency between venues and cabinets.

So I'm thinking that the Helix and Axe would allow me to find something more and experiment. Have to be honest, I've not found a demo of the Helix that's made me go "that's the one" yet, and the AxeFX community seems great but I've read some really nasty stories over the last few days. The Kemper lot seem like a really solid bunch of guys.

So I'm far from decided...but I am leaning toward the AxeFX, from what I've heard so far - whilst staring longingly at my current pedals and broken amp, thinking "what the actual f*ck am I doing!?"

Mate, if YOU are looking at your pedals going "WTF am I doing?", all bets are off, as I know how carefully you've been assembling your effects.

Sporky

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I'm shying away from the AX8 and floor stuff, I think I'd rather a rack, and would definitely prefer the full functionality of the AxeFX rack. If I'm giving up all my gear, I want the best I can get in whatever product I choose. 

There's the Helix rack too... which you can buy from a whole load of UK retailers who actually have stock.

Jonathanthomas83

BintyTwanger77 said:

Mate, if YOU are looking at your pedals going "WTF am I doing?", all bets are off, as I know how carefully you've been assembling your effects.

Ah, this makes me sad. I definitely have spent a long, long time assembling my ultimate and dream pedalboard. It's 99.9999% there too. And it sounds sublime, I love it. So yeah, it definitely is "WTF!".

The amp caused me to think this way. Even though I love that too, when it works.

Jonathanthomas83

Sporky said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I'm shying away from the AX8 and floor stuff, I think I'd rather a rack, and would definitely prefer the full functionality of the AxeFX rack. If I'm giving up all my gear, I want the best I can get in whatever product I choose. 

There's the Helix rack too... which you can buy from a whole load of UK retailers who actually have stock.

Definitely, I'm going to go try one out in the next few days if I get a chance :-)

crunchman

Jonathanthomas83 said:

It's AxeFX v Helix for me, I want something that will be groundbreaking and allow me to find new sounds. As much as I love the idea and interface of the Kemper, I feel like I need more than an amp profiler. I also don't want to have to buy profiles of amps with pedals in front of them. The Helix and Axe both have the ability to add pedals, and I like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kemper has models of pedals in it, so you can have an amp profile and then step on a pedal in the profile.  I'm not sure how good some of the models are - I find with drive pedals that putting a real pedal in front tends to sound a bit better than the modelled ones.  I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking the modelled ones though.  

There are new delays on the way that are meant to be a big improvement on the existing ones. 

BintyTwanger77

crunchman said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

It's AxeFX v Helix for me, I want something that will be groundbreaking and allow me to find new sounds. As much as I love the idea and interface of the Kemper, I feel like I need more than an amp profiler. I also don't want to have to buy profiles of amps with pedals in front of them. The Helix and Axe both have the ability to add pedals, and I like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kemper has models of pedals in it, so you can have an amp profile and then step on a pedal in the profile.  I'm not sure how good some of the models are - I find with drive pedals that putting a real pedal in front tends to sound a bit better than the modelled ones.  I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking the modelled ones though.  

There are new delays on the way that are meant to be a big improvement on the existing ones. 

Are there going to be any updates to the Kemper reverbs?

crunchman

BintyTwanger77 said:

Are there going to be any updates to the Kemper reverbs?

From looking on the Kemper forum there don't appear to be any updates to the reverbs in the near future.  There are rumours about what might be coming down the line in a year or two.

John_A

Jonathanthomas83 said:

BintyTwanger77 said:

Mate, if YOU are looking at your pedals going "WTF am I doing?", all bets are off, as I know how carefully you've been assembling your effects.

Ah, this makes me sad. I definitely have spent a long, long time assembling my ultimate and dream pedalboard. It's 99.9999% there too. And it sounds sublime, I love it. So yeah, it definitely is "WTF!".

The amp caused me to think this way. Even though I love that too, when it works.

I thought my amp and pedalboard sounded sublime too, and I'm sure it sounded great but since I've got the Helix my guitar sound both at home, rehearsing and at gigs is definitely a LOT better.  So much better that the amps and pedals I thought I'd hang on to are all sold or up for sale because owning them is pointless.

Clarky

guitarfishbay said:

professorben said:

Such as applying a Marshall tone stack to a Mesa preamp? 

You can do this on the Axe FX 2 - I think all tone stacks can be selected (though I've not cross referenced as I don't use the feature) as well as tone stack position.  I think @Clarky has done some experimenting with modding some of the amps that way.

yes you can switch tone stacks..
that's not quite what I was doing though..
I did a few mods on a MkIIC and a JCM800
what I did to them was to place the master volume 'post phase inverter' [standard they are pre phase inverter]
and I swapped the power valves in the JCM to KT88's to soften the extreme highs a little
those two mid-gain amps then turned into hi-gain monsters..
the hot-rodded MkIIC in particular makes that wonderful early EVH tone

ToneControl

Jonathanthomas83 said:

So, I made a tit of myself on an AxeFX thread and it's come back to bite me on the arse...

 Also, those who have made the shift, have you gone all in or do you still have your amps lying about? I'm kind of an all in or nothing kind of guy and would be hesitant to keep anything lying around that I'm not using.

 Cheers!

I have both
I had lots of valve amps, now I only have a few
I play the Axefx more. I think it excels in cleaner sounds, metal sounds and the FX are stunning
Kemper is stronger for OD and fully saturated amps, still OK for some clean and metal, FX are poor I think

so it depends what your sound is

WarpedSounds

Do you think Fractal will ever introduce a range of individual pedals to rival Strymon/Eventide etc? You would think there'd be a huge market for it. 

Fiftyshadesofjay

In my opinion Kemper is absolute king for amp tones, no question. I've AB'd profiles I've made against the real amp and it's so close. I agree that the low end can be slightly different, but really it doesn't matter, it still sounds awesome.

Axe Fx is good but they all have a sort of signature sound and I find the amps can sound a bit samey. If you like what it does though then it's a great choice.

Helix is amazing to use and the effects are some of the best out the lot but the amp sims are poor relations of the other two, sorry to say. Also had big reliability issues with the Helix.

Easiest to use is Helix and Kemper. If you're just after a good amp tone Kemper is easy, just load a profile and go. Helix interface is fantastic though.

Axe Fx is a nightmare usability wise. It's not even the interface, it's the fact that the levels are a nightmare to set and everything you do changes depending on what new block you add. Sure you can do loads of cool stuff, but when it takes two hours to do the cool stuff you just end up getting pissed off.

guitartango

Kemper Profiling Amp - is it ethical? Food for Thought !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkf4kXVkZek

guitartango

Kemper Profiling Amp - is it ethical? Food for Thought !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkf4kXVkZek