AxeFX & Kemper - thinking the unthinkable and selling my soul to the devil

TimmyO

I hadn't seen that challenge before so took it just now out of interest - I only got one "right"   

I might try again later with my studio 'phones but I lready know I really like the noises my Helix makes 

Jonathanthomas83

There's no arguing that it can get amazing tones regardless of the outcome of the test...

John_A

There are certainly amazing 'tones' (hate that word) to be had out of the Helix, the Axefx, and the Kemper, any arguments on what's 'best' is pointless, they are all great.  Love my Helix, but if Id bought an AxeFX or Kemper would have most likely loved that too

Roland

@John_A ;I agree totally.

Every time I see the question "which is best?" I have to remind myself that "best" is a relative term. It relates only to a set of criteria. Tests like this presume that the criteria are "which modeller sounds closest to the original valve amp when both recordings are over compressed with bandpass filtering?"

My personal criteria are "does it work well in a live band mix?". My experience is that all three do that. 

keir

When you play a kemper / helixdoes it feel like a real amp or does it sound / feel like a recorded amp?

Jonathanthomas83

I think all of them will sound like a recorded amp as they all utilise IRs. It's the way you amplify them that will approximate the feel of a real amp.

Bridgehouse

Personally, I think it's sad that as a community (and I include the manufacturers here) we collectively rate technological developments and awesome bits of kit based on how close they come to sounding like devices that were at best a compromise to solve a problem nearly 60 years ago. 

Some of the most creative musicians ever embraced new technologies and used them as their own thing to create awe inspiring music. 

I wonder if there will ever come a point where a multi amp/effects/whatever solution will be highly regarded in it's own right rather than because it sounds really close to or the same as a 60 year old design that wasn't even designed for that purpose in the first place.

guitarfishbay

Yes it really all comes down to the entirely subjective - 'does it work for me'

A lot of Fractal and Kemper owners bought in a time where at the 'high end' it was Kemper or Axe FX 2.  Now there's Helix, AX8, FX8, and soon to be Headrush, every unit has its own strengths...

John_A

My Helix ran FRFR through a Yamaha DXR10 sounds and feels like a real amp.  However the sound is better than any real amp I've ever used

ToneControl

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Lads, this little nugget is coming back to haunt me!!! I've pretty much ruled out a Kemper but tried a Helix in PMT yesterday and the UI on there is amazing. Can't help but think that I'll always wonder about what kind of sounds the Axe FX will give me though...that's holding me back from taking the plunge! Any advice! 

what sounds do you use?
if it's cleans with lots of FX, AF2 is much better than  Kemper
If it's amp tones with no FX, Kemper is better usually, although AF2 has a  few killer clean tones and is very popular for metal tones

TimmyO

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I think all of them will sound like a recorded amp as they all utilise IRs. It's the way you amplify them that will approximate the feel of a real amp.

For me, the feel thing *is* there, and that is important.  It wasn't back in POD 2.0 days ( lol ) but the current stuff seems to do a good job of simulating the right input impedance, and there are parameters for sag, power ripple etc etc etc. And feedback is possible using FRFR the same as it is for any other 'real' speaker 

TimmyO

Jonathanthomas83 said:

There's no arguing that it can get amazing tones regardless of the outcome of the test...

gah - that prompted my first ever purchased patch lol 

ToneControl

BintyTwanger77 said:

crunchman said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

It's AxeFX v Helix for me, I want something that will be groundbreaking and allow me to find new sounds. As much as I love the idea and interface of the Kemper, I feel like I need more than an amp profiler. I also don't want to have to buy profiles of amps with pedals in front of them. The Helix and Axe both have the ability to add pedals, and I like that. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Kemper has models of pedals in it, so you can have an amp profile and then step on a pedal in the profile.  I'm not sure how good some of the models are - I find with drive pedals that putting a real pedal in front tends to sound a bit better than the modelled ones.  I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking the modelled ones though.  

There are new delays on the way that are meant to be a big improvement on the existing ones. 

Are there going to be any updates to the Kemper reverbs?

I personally find all the FX in the Kemper very poor, just basic   stuff that is just about usable, nothing inspiring

AF2 FX are so good I sold my Big sky, and it has all manner of other stuff, including multi band compressors  

guitarfishbay

If you dial in the low frequency resonance to match the (traditional guitar) cabinet you are using, then the Axe FX 2 through an SS poweramp (in my case Matrix GT1000FX) feels like a tighter version of playing the real amp.  It is dynamic, and all the different models feel different, but it isn't 100% the same.  I'm happy with the sounds I'm getting though I would like to try it with a valve power amp one day.

Regardless of unit, I know that both @paulmapp8306 and @Cabicular have used valve poweramps with their digital units, presumably for tone and feel reasons.

Through monitors I can't really tell much difference though I have rarely been in the situation where I'm playing through a real amp but listening through monitors (and unable to hear/feel the real amp in any meaningful way).  I'm very happy with the playing feel for recording/playing direct.

John_A

ToneControl said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Lads, this little nugget is coming back to haunt me!!! I've pretty much ruled out a Kemper but tried a Helix in PMT yesterday and the UI on there is amazing. Can't help but think that I'll always wonder about what kind of sounds the Axe FX will give me though...that's holding me back from taking the plunge! Any advice! 

what sounds do you use?
if it's cleans with lots of FX, AF2 is much better than  Kemper
If it's amp tones with no FX, Kemper is better usually, although AF2 has a  few killer clean tones and is very popular for metal tones

What's 'better'?  Any of the big 3 will sound absolutely amazing for any style of music at all  Main reason I went Helix was a 3-Year warranty (Thomann or DV247) as, although unlikely, having £1200 worth of gear stop working after 13 months would be annoying to say the least.  You could get the same deal on a Kemper too.

I've gigged it for 6 months, and I smile from ear to ear every time I play it,  it sounds that good.  I'll admit I did go through a 'should I have bought an Ax8?' phase, but it soon passed

Just jump in with whichever unit you fancy and enjoy it

ToneControl

I just did the Helix challenge
for 4/5 right first go
only one I got wrong was the clean amp - I assumed that the one with a noise gate would be the Helix - doh

http://uk.line6.com/helix/sound.html/

I don't think these amps are  a good enough test
They need to  prove it with more subtle tones like Tweed twins and Matchless DC30s

Drew_TNBD

keir said:

When you play a kemper / helixdoes it feel like a real amp or does it sound / feel like a recorded amp?

Well all three sound amazing. And all three feel really good. Whether they feel like your favourite amp is another thing... I mean, not all valve amps feel the same to play through, so why should all modellers? Valve amps are a different thing. Modellers are their own thing imho, and I think once you lose the mindset of 'I'm trying to replace my valve amps' then that really free's you to be creative with them.

Beexter

I'm not for one minute saying one is better than another.
Having sold off a load of pedals,  I fortunately raised enough funds to buy either a Kemper, Helix or AX8. I researched a lot (as you would when laying out that sort of cash) 
I initially wanted a Kemper but ruled it out as I wanted amp sounds AND a wide range of tweakable effects. Which left me with Helix or AX8. As I couldn't try an AX8, the best comparison option available to me was online demo's. I listened to loads.
Ultimately,  I chose the AX8 because I preferred the sounds I heard from it in demo's.

It's not knocking any of the others in any way. It's nice to have the choice. Everyone will have different criteria which will affect their purchase decision but based on MY criteria, I'm happy with my choice. 

As @Drew_TNBD said,  they are different but the creative possibilities they offer are mind-blowing. It's going to take a while to think differently enough to get the most from them. There's stuff that you can do that would be almost impossible to do in non-modelling world. 

colourofsound

I think that your starting point (a broken tube amp on a gig) is flawed. No offence!

Observe my story:

I once had a TC Electronic Nova Drive. This is a digitally controlled dual overdrive, as most of you will already know. Really liked it, gigged it loads, etc etc.

Now, lets put aside the generally observed reliability issues of TC Electronic stuff for a second...

It broke. I was gutted. I sent it to TC Electronic, and they told me that the digital power management doodab and blown due to a power surge.

£70 to fix. I bought the pedal for £90 second hand I think. So I almost had to buy it again.

Now, i know what most will say - TC are unreliable, the pedal was built 10 years ago, and so on. And all of these things are true.

But the fact remains - if it was an analog pedal, I could've fixed it myself, had I the skills to do so; or sent it to someone who could for very little cost.

Extrapolate that - you've had the Helix/AX8 for 3 years, and the warranty is over. Something happens at a gig, and its fucked. Can you repair it yourself? Can you send it to your friendly amp tech to look at it? Nope!

You have to send it to Fractal or Line 6. Maybe their customer service is ace; maybe it'll be fine. But they've got you by the balls - you can't go anywhere else for that repair and they will charge you a lot for it.

Whereas, if a tube blows in your amp...you just replace it yourself. I carry spare valves with me at all times. And spare fuses. If something else breaks that you can't fix - it'll probably cost you £100 on average to fix an amp that cost over a grand.

So yeah, it's about trust and reliability in a product, really. All of these products sound great at the end of the day, and they all have a compromise of some sort, whether it be weight, reliability, how deep you have to tweak, and so on.

What you need to decide is: What compromises are *you* willing to make?


......


On a separate note, I like the personality that pedals and amps bring, both aesthetically and aurally speaking; and there is a trend in both live music and recorded music towards digital which I personally find worrying. The art of things is getting lost; and everyone has the same sounds. Digital is consistent - and that is a double edge sword.  One persons's AxeFX will be identical to someone else's; whereas as 2 Deluxe Reverbs will never be the same.

With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix; the easy way out.

John_A

Great stuff!  @Beexter I thought you were still deliberating which to buy.  Yep, no right or wrong, only choices