Why are gigging amps getting smaller ?

p90fool

richardhomer said:

I've not gigged for a long time - but have stage volumes really dropped that much?

Not unless you use IEMs, without which the stage volume is still dictated by the volume of the drummer. 

I'm getting loud, deep, well-balanced clean tones out of a pair of 20w valve combos, there's no way on earth I'd get away with only one of the amps, and our drummer is relatively quiet. 

richardhomer

p90fool said:

richardhomer said:

I've not gigged for a long time - but have stage volumes really dropped that much?

Not unless you use IEMs, without which the stage volume is still dictated by the volume of the drummer. 

I'm getting loud, deep, well-balanced clean tones out of a pair of 20w valve combos, there's no way on earth I'd get away with only one of the amps, and our drummer is relatively quiet. 

That was my point really - the LSS's clean headroom doesn't strike me as enough to compete with a drummer - so unless drums have become a lot quieter,  I can't see how smaller amps would work.

I was chatting to someone recently who gigs a Princeton - apparently unmic'd.

Princetons kick out a lot of volume for 12 watts - but I can't believe the guy just doesn't get drowned out by the drummer and bass player.

ICBM

richardhomer said:

That was my point really - the LSS's clean headroom doesn't strike me as enough to compete with a drummer - so unless drums have become a lot quieter,  I can't see how smaller amps would work.

I was chatting to someone recently who gigs a Princeton - apparently unmic'd.

Princetons kick out a lot of volume for 12 watts - but I can't believe the guy just doesn't get drowned out by the drummer and bass player.

Depends if he's using it clean. If so I'd be astonished if it was loud enough too. Also bear in mind that 'clean' means different things to some guitarists - to me, and I suspect you, it means no audible clipping at all. To others it seems to mean 'less distorted than a cranked Marshall' .

The guitarist in my band never uses a properly clean sound. He had a 5W Victoria 5112 'tweed Champ in a Deluxe cabinet' - admittedly with a 100dB speaker - and it was actually loud enough flat-out to keep up with a fairly loud drummer and my 500W bass amp. Even for him it wouldn't clean up quite enough though.

A Princeton is quite loud too, although I think they need an efficient 12" speaker to make them really giggable in a rock band. camf has one with a Celestion Blue, and I would say that definitely is if you don't need strict cleans.

p90fool

My rhythm guitarist uses my old Princeton unmiked on most gigs, but our drummer is fairly quiet and he puts it on top of the bass rig aiming at his shoulder blades.

I'm waiting for him to say it's not quite cutting it, so I can sell him the Ragin' Cajun I used to run in it.

Danny1969

There's so many situations that are different among us players that what works for some would be useless for others. A lot of my friends use HT5's now for giging your nomal pub rock stuff but that amp wouldn't suit a Doom player or anyone who likes cystal clean sounds. My HT5 is clean enough at pub volume to do a reasonable Sultans of swing and that's clean enough for me. Wouldn't suit everybody though 

Things have changed though .... Better PAs and more awareness of hearing damage. I can remember buying my first Marshall and ignoring the 50 watt version cos I didn't think it would be loud enough

Hoof

richardhomer said:

p90fool said:

richardhomer said:

I've not gigged for a long time - but have stage volumes really dropped that much?

Not unless you use IEMs, without which the stage volume is still dictated by the volume of the drummer. 

I'm getting loud, deep, well-balanced clean tones out of a pair of 20w valve combos, there's no way on earth I'd get away with only one of the amps, and our drummer is relatively quiet. 

That was my point really - the LSS's clean headroom doesn't strike me as enough to compete with a drummer - so unless drums have become a lot quieter,  I can't see how smaller amps would work.

I think guitarists are just expected to tolerate a much lower onstage volume by most sound engineers these days as it makes their job easier. Also the aforementioned dB limiters have had a huge impact. Most pub gigs I do I have to leave my earplugs out otherwise I'll either not hear myself or give into the temptation of tweaking up my volume and presence controls to suit myself.

The problem is often made worse by the fact that crash cymbals are usually closer to your ears than your own amp.

Voxman

monquixote said:

It's better PAs, smaller venues, noise limiters at venues, aging guitarists with bad backs, more efficient speakers and a semi myth about amps needing to be cranked to sound good.

A lot of good points there - & I particularly resonate with ageing guitarists with bad backs, because that's me. When I was young I could schlapp around amps like my Vox AC30 (around 74lbs), Fender 2x12 Blackface/Silverface, Marshall heads & 4x12 cabs etc - but not anymore.  My current heaviest amp is the Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX, weighing in in at around 58lbs - and at my age with my back problems I just can't schlapp that around anymore (stairs, cars etc).  So now I play a Tonelab LE/SE through an amp that's there, or through the PA.  If I do need to take an amp I'll often opt for the lightest I have.

slacker

Wouldnt it just be a lot better if us musicians didnt insist in measuring amps by watts? 

I have four amps, a really soft one, a soft one, a loud one and one that's too loud. 

ICBM

slacker said:

Wouldnt it just be a lot better if us musicians didnt insist in measuring amps by watts? 

Possibly. But it is a vaguely useful measurement - it just doesn't tell the whole story by a long way. I think it would be even worse if amp companies didn't list the power at all, or simply made up a loudness scale - because they would, it's bad enough anyway with some of them exaggerating output power which is a simple measurable parameter.

The real problem is that the human ear is so non-linear and the difference between a truly clean solid-state sound and a heavily overdriven valve one is so vast that you could easily find 10W (valve, no master volume, distorted lead sound) is too much and 100W (solid-state, preamp distortion and effects, wide-range clean sound) is too little, even if both measurements are accurate.

But I think it's still a reasonable guide, if you understand what the other factors are.

monquixote

I think the levels of bands is vastly different as well. 

In one of my old bands the guitarist used an HT40 absolutely cranked, which was miced up and then substantial amounts more put through the PA. I'd have my 400w bass amp pushed pretty hard to keep up.

The thing is the band was just too loud. We would often clear a pub when we started because people's ears were ringing. I had people say they liked us, but they would listen to us from the other bar because you could hear it better when you weren't in the same room. When I continually raised it with them they would say "It's rock and roll it's meant to be loud" and that was that. 

The last band I was in was a soul and funk band and the power amp of the JCA22H running off an Amplifire was barely on tickover without being miced up. I also used to use the 60 Watt solid state TM60 and that had quite a bit in reserve.
In order to have a band like that you have to have a drummer who knows how to play properly rather than the normal wittless thumper you get in a lot of pub bands.

bbill335

monquixote said:

 wittless thumper

Band name, Witless Thumper[s]. Called it!

Alnico

I've got a Fender Deville.

I've never heard anyone complain !

p90fool

monquixote said:

I think the levels of bands is vastly different as well. 

In one of my old bands the guitarist used an HT40 absolutely cranked, which was miced up and then substantial amounts more put through the PA. I'd have my 400w bass amp pushed pretty hard to keep up.

The thing is the band was just too loud. We would often clear a pub when we started because people's ears were ringing. I had people say they liked us, but they would listen to us from the other bar because you could hear it better when you weren't in the same room. When I continually raised it with them they would say "It's rock and roll it's meant to be loud" and that was that. 

The last band I was in was a soul and funk band and the power amp of the JCA22H running off an Amplifire was barely on tickover without being miced up. I also used to use the 60 Watt solid state TM60 and that had quite a bit in reserve.
In order to have a band like that you have to have a drummer who knows how to play properly rather than the normal wittless thumper you get in a lot of pub bands.

This is one of the main reasons we get so many repeat bookings in pubs, punters who didn't specifically go out to see a band are not forced to leave when we start up, primarily due to our Arbiter Flats drum kit. 

I can't believe so many pubs pay bands week in week out 300 quid to come and empty their bars. 

ICBM

p90fool said:

This is one of the main reasons we get so many repeat bookings in pubs, punters who didn't specifically go out to see a band are not forced to leave when we start up, primarily due to our Arbiter Flats drum kit. 

These are absolutely brilliant. My old drummer had a set for quieter gigs, they were perfect - not really quiet, but noticeably less punchy and overpowering, which is almost as important as the volume. They're also a doddle to carry compared to a full-size kit. The only slight problem is that you need to get deliberately lower-quality cymbals to go with them or the cymbals overpower the kit.

p90fool

ICBM said:

p90fool said:

This is one of the main reasons we get so many repeat bookings in pubs, punters who didn't specifically go out to see a band are not forced to leave when we start up, primarily due to our Arbiter Flats drum kit. 

These are absolutely brilliant. My old drummer had a set for quieter gigs, they were perfect - not really quiet, but noticeably less punchy and overpowering, which is almost as important as the volume. They're also a doddle to carry compared to a full-size kit. The only slight problem is that you need to get deliberately lower-quality cymbals to go with them or the cymbals overpower the kit.

We use lightweight Dream Bliss cymbals, which balance really well acoustically.

One little-known fact about Flats is that they mic up beautifully, partly because of the single-point tuning system but also because there's no shell or bottom head ringing out of tune.
We've used ours through big rigs in front of three thousand people a few times and once the crew get over the fact that their drum mic clips won't work they're always amazed by the controlled, modern, almost studio sound they can instantly obtain.

ICBM

That's extremely useful to know - I don't think we ever used them mic'ed up, it was always for small gigs with only vocals and acoustic guitars through the PA.

Voxman

I'd be more than happy to carry her off - but not the gear!  

bob21

slacker said:

Wouldnt it just be a lot better if us musicians didnt insist in measuring amps by watts? 

The issue isn't the unit - it is the scheme of measurement..

Look hard at a (decent!) spec sheet, and you'll see a bunch of numbers and letters after a measurement in watts - these tell more of the story!

For instance - an amp is measured at a THD (total harmonic distortion). Now for pro audio kit (obviously all solid state) this is 0.05% - so at the wattage is measured at the point there is this much distortion. Now I have also seen spec sheets that measure wattage at 5% THD - which is massively greater.
(this is also somewhat linked to the 'dirty valve amp being more powerful than the listed wattage thing)

Also there are different scales - RMS, Average, Peak, PMPO (which has thankfully mostly died out) - the difference between RMS power and Peak being very significant too.

It also depends what you measure with - music, pink noise, 1kHz sine wave etc etc.. This can skew things too.

All these things are comparable - but sadly, most manufacturers in the MI sector do not publish proper spec sheets, and those that do, don't necessarily own up to which measurement scheme and which input source was used!

In pro audio, we often use volts, as it is a little clearer - for a given input voltage, the amp can produce a given output voltage etc..

p90fool

ICBM said:

That's extremely useful to know - I don't think we ever used them mic'ed up, it was always for small gigs with only vocals and acoustic guitars through the PA.

With the caveat I forgot though, the Flats snare is horrible so we use an old Tama. 

monquixote

I used to have a flats kit. 

Twas great. (except the snare which is indeed shit)