Why are gigging amps getting smaller ?

sev112 · November 2016

So what is all this apparent trend for small medium gigs for 15w to 20w amps?

that was the "power" of the crappy amps we had in our bedrooms in the 80s that made horrible sounds

Is it just that these days everything goes into the PA or gets miked up so that the bigger wattage is on,y needed at much bigger venues

or is there something else - easier to distort, which I'm not really after anyway, or snobbery, or trend ?

longjaw · November 2016

If you don't need a clean sound a 20 watt valve head through an efficient 12" speaker is more than enough for medium sized gigs.

monquixote · November 2016

It's better PAs, smaller venues, noise limiters at venues, aging guitarists with bad backs, more efficient speakers and a semi myth about amps needing to be cranked to sound good.

sev112 · November 2016

Ta, so is there a significant difference between a 20W valve amp and a 20W solid state (ow whatever transistors are called these days ) ?

Sporky · November 2016

sev112 said:

Ta, so is there a significant difference between a 20W valve amp and a 20W solid state (ow whatever transistors are called these days ) ?

Yes, because a 20W valve amp will put out much more than that when it's overdriving the power stage. A 20W solid state amp tops out at 20W.

Also solid state amps tend not to have as good speakers, so even at the same measured wattage that can mean a huge volume difference.

monquixote · November 2016

sev112 said:

Ta, so is there a significant difference between a 20W valve amp and a 20W solid state (ow whatever transistors are called these days ) ?

Usually massive.

There is also a massive difference between different valve amps that claim to be 20 watt from too quiet to get above a drummer all the way to mind explodingly loud.

ICBM · November 2016

sev112 said:

So what is all this apparent trend for small medium gigs for 15w to 20w amps?

that was the "power" of the crappy amps we had in our bedrooms in the 80s that made horrible sounds

Is it just that these days everything goes into the PA or gets miked up so that the bigger wattage is on,y needed at much bigger venues

or is there something else - easier to distort, which I'm not really after anyway, or snobbery, or trend ?

Partly the realisation that speaker efficiency is almost more important than amplifier power. The typical crappy 15W 80s solid-state practice amp had an 8" speaker of about 94dB if you're lucky. The same 15W amp through even a 1x12" cab with a 100dB speaker will be as loud as a 60W amp through a 94dB one. (3dB is equivalent to a doubling of amp power.)

Not only that, a fully-cranked 15W solid-state power stage will sound horrible so you'll be using it clean with preamp distortion only (it may even be intentionally designed like that), which limits the effective power to no more than about half that, whereas a 15W valve amp will usually sound glorious overdriven, at which point it could be putting out up to 30W… so that's another four-to-one advantage to the valve amp.

And that's even before you get into technicalities of speaker thermal compression, power stage damping, soft clipping points vs hard distortion, and other things which make a valve amp sound louder than even a solid-state one of exactly the same measured power into the same speaker.

I would say that you need around a 100W solid-state amp, even through good speakers, just to be as loud as a cranked-up 20W valve amp.

The difference is less important for strictly clean sounds, yes - and especially if you want full-range tones (lots of solid bass and treble clarity for playing full clean chords rather than compressed midrange for soloing) - that's where low-powered valve amps will still struggle.

sev112 · November 2016

ICBM said:

sev112 said:

So what is all this apparent trend for small medium gigs for 15w to 20w amps?

that was the "power" of the crappy amps we had in our bedrooms in the 80s that made horrible sounds

Is it just that these days everything goes into the PA or gets miked up so that the bigger wattage is on,y needed at much bigger venues

or is there something else - easier to distort, which I'm not really after anyway, or snobbery, or trend ?

Partly the realisation that speaker efficiency is almost more important than amplifier power. The typical crappy 15W 80s solid-state practice amp had an 8" speaker of about 94dB if you're lucky. The same 15W amp through even a 1x12" cab with a 100dB speaker will be as loud as a 60W amp through a 94dB one. (3dB is equivalent to a doubling of amp power.)

Not only that, a fully-cranked 15W solid-state power stage will sound horrible so you'll be using it clean with preamp distortion only (it may even be intentionally designed like that), which limits the effective power to no more than about half that, whereas a 15W valve amp will usually sound glorious overdriven, at which point it could be putting out up to 30W… so that's another four-to-one advantage to the valve amp.

And that's even before you get into technicalities of speaker thermal compression, power stage damping, soft clipping points vs hard distortion, and other things which make a valve amp sound louder than even a solid-state one of exactly the same measured power into the same speaker.

I would say that you need around a 100W solid-state amp, even through good speakers, just to be as loud as a cranked-up 20W valve amp.

The difference is less important for strictly clean sounds, yes - and especially if you want full-range tones (lots of solid bass and treble clarity for playing full clean chords rather than compressed midrange for soloing) - that's where low-powered valve amps will still struggle.

Extremely enlightening on several levels. Thanks for that level off detail

Lew · November 2016

'spose it depends wot gigs you go to innit bruv?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/35/f2/f235f2ffb7284314ee19c39d37f1f265.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/3e/e1/5d/3ee15da39bd66055a32655bfebdb65a0.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/11/99/da/1199da2bbe8d23b73998fdebfa8de41b.jpg

sweepy · November 2016

I'll bet hardly any of those speakers are plugged in

Lew · November 2016

You'd be wrong. That's Sunn O))) Matt Pike and Boris.

richardhomer · November 2016

I've not gigged for a long time - but have stage volumes really dropped that much?

I've never used my Lonestar Special live - but have doubts about its clean headroom, even set to 30 watts. There almost seems to be an inverse snobbery around how few watts people gig with these days.

Does anyone genuinely get good cleans at stage volumes from a low (i.e. sub-50watt) amp?

Sassafras · November 2016

I've had excellent clean sounds from Vox AC30s at loud stage volumes.

Sassafras · November 2016

Image: https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/35/f2/f235f2ffb7284314ee19c39d37f1f265.jpg

Who'd have thought P&W had to be played so loud.
I thought God was all around us.

ThePrettyDamned · November 2016

Sassafras said:

I've had excellent clean sounds from Vox AC30s at loud stage volumes.

To be fair, ac30s are bastard loud - and they seem to hit all the right frequencies to cut through anything.

martinw · November 2016

richardhomer said:

Does anyone genuinely get good cleans at stage volumes from a low (i.e. sub-50watt) amp?

I get great cleans from my 20W V6-20.

It's not that head-slicing crystal clean you'd get from a Twin at the same volume, but then that's not what I want. I define my clean as a good clean for what I do, and a lot of other guys would too. Some wouldn't, horses for courses.

I mostly play smallish places, but on the odd occasion I've played bigger, I've been miked up. But then I'd have been miked up even if I'd had a bigger amp to get the spread.

Stage volumes are not an issue.... it's more than enough.

Voxman · November 2016

ICBM said
I would say that you need around a 100W solid-state amp, even through good speakers, just to be as loud as a cranked-up 20W valve amp.

I agree that valve amps are typically louder than equivalent solid state amps, but I think the 20 to 100 comparison is a bit OTT. My 80w Marshall Valvestate is at least as loud as my 40w Marshall dsl401. My 15w Laney Cub has a 100db Vintage 30 effectively making it the equivalent of a 25-30w amp, but its not as loud as the Valvestate. And my 60w Valvetronix is really loud. I've been on stage with a 50w marshall and 4 x12, and with the extension 2x12 my AD120VTX* has more than held its own - but a 100w Marshall is louder. (*I appreciate it's a 2x60w stereo amp),

Certain 30w amps like the Vox AC30 and Laney VC30 are insanely loud and louder than most 100w solid state amps (and probably even approaching as loud as some 100w valve amps!). I say most because there have been some insanely loud solid state amps such as the H&H IC100. There was also a solid state amp that so impressed Pete Townsend re volume and valve like tone that he got one for himself. I can't recall the name but I think it was called a Blue Tone or something like that. I think it was only made as a 30w but it bore no comparison with a typical 30w SS amp. I'm sure it was the introduction of digital modelling that brought about the death knoll of the development of such SS amps.

And I think a nod to the latest generation of solid state amps is called for too, where volume is getting very close to valve equivalent volumes. Examples include the Blackstar ID amps such as the ID60, the new Vox VTX and AV series (these do have valves too), and by all reports the new Boss Katana.

20 to 100 equivalence? With the ever greater efficiency in tone, volume and feel of modern solid state amps that is making them more appealing to more and more players, including professionals, I just don't agree 20:100 is a reasonable comparator.

However, I would caveat my comments because we probably need to consider what is considered solid state. Some amps are hybrids and use valves in various ways eg my Valvetronix has two valves (effectively in the power-section, reacting to speaker impedence - different design to the subsequent models) & my Marshall Valvestate has a single 12AX7 but this is only used to warm tone.

Anyway, all I'm suggesting is that the great valve/solid-state volume 'divide' is no longer the gaping chasm it used to be.

monquixote · November 2016

richardhomer said:

I've not gigged for a long time - but have stage volumes really dropped that much?

I've never used my Lonestar Special live - but have doubts about its clean headroom, even set to 30 watts. There almost seems to be an inverse snobbery around how few watts people gig with these days.

Does anyone genuinely get good cleans at stage volumes from a low (i.e. sub-50watt) amp?

Yep I played a 22 watt deluxe for years stayed mostly clean at most venues.

As @Photek will confirm the 25 watt puretone is so loud it's actually hard to get it the sweet spot at a lot of venues.

FelineGuitars · November 2016

ICBM said:

sev112 said:

So what is all this apparent trend for small medium gigs for 15w to 20w amps?

that was the "power" of the crappy amps we had in our bedrooms in the 80s that made horrible sounds

Is it just that these days everything goes into the PA or gets miked up so that the bigger wattage is on,y needed at much bigger venues

or is there something else - easier to distort, which I'm not really after anyway, or snobbery, or trend ?

Partly the realisation that speaker efficiency is almost more important than amplifier power. The typical crappy 15W 80s solid-state practice amp had an 8" speaker of about 94dB if you're lucky. The same 15W amp through even a 1x12" cab with a 100dB speaker will be as loud as a 60W amp through a 94dB one. (3dB is equivalent to a doubling of amp power.)

Which is why my 10W single ended amps through my 103dB celestion sidewinders are nice and punchy even though I don't gig them.

Bellycaster · November 2016

I've just done a gig with the Maz 18 Head as a clean base for my pedals, Wolfgang into the Low Input. In the soundcheck I had the Master Vol and Volume(Gain) at 10 O'Clock(cleanish tone), the sound guy told me to turn down.

He was right it was overpowering on stage volume, with nothing through monitors and a Drummer who isn't shy. Had it on both Vols set at 9 O'Clock in the end.

The room was about 60 ft by 40 ft. With it miced up and after putting a bit through monitors it was fine.

ICBM · November 2016

Voxman makes some good points about differences between specific amps. Actually the DSL401 is not a very good example of a 40W valve amp, in volume terms - it's just not that loud, even with a better speaker. I agree that a Valvestate 8080 is as loud - but a Fender Hotrod Deluxe is noticeably louder than either.

The Blackstar ID series is a deliberate cheat - they're actually twice the claimed power, intentionally to allow them to simulate an overdriven valve amp. I do think it's a 'fair cheat' though, because that's exactly why comparing the same power doesn't really work otherwise.

I think 4:1 or 5:1 is about right on average, for overdriven sounds. Less for clean, but still at least 2:1. There are real physics reasons for this, it's not that valves are somehow 'magic' - mostly it's because you can overdrive a valve power amp but not a solid-state one (if you want it to sound any good), and a slightly overdriven valve amp doesn't sound noticeably distorted in the way a solid-state one does.

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Why are gigging amps getting smaller ?

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