Why improvising with Scales is wrong!!

Niallseroreilly

I've come to this realisation that playing scales are bad for you.

The reason being that when I play a scale over a progression, I find myself riffing off and don't think about the progression or note choice at all. I end up playing what ive played a million times before. It also discourages me from hearing what im actually playing, Rather I'm just noodling around.

I tend to focus on arpeggios now as I find I listen to the progression more and I try to follow where the melody wants me to go. It isn't easy Ill admit and there is a lot of learning involved and the temptation to rip into a pentatonic at a moments notice is always there but I find it has a lot more benefits than the scale approach.

Obviously the title is tongue n cheek.

I'd love to hear what you guys think and maybe offer any advice if you think there are benefits im missing out on?

sweepy

I always think it depends on whether you want to play with the changes or through them, both approaches are valid imho

steamabacus

And yet .....

"I practise all the scales.
Everyone should know lots of scales.
Actually, I feel there are only scales.
What is a chord if not the notes of a scale hooked together?"

 - John McLaughlin


Everyone has their own approach to soloing. If it sounds good, it's never wrong.

Niallseroreilly

I like it. I came to the conclusion after seeing Jim Mullen the famous Jazz guitarist play. He was simply sensational. However he said he didn't play any scales or arpeggios. He was making music in real time, his brain and guitar connected seamlessly.

There is something about a scale that seems inherently wrong if you want to be able play as musical as possible. If the thought process if ' Ill play this scale over this chord or this scale over this progression' then surely you are confining yourself.

What im trying to say is surely the ultimate goal as a guitarist is to replicate what you hear in your head quickly and seamlessly?

Do scales discourage fretboard and ultimately musical freedom?

Jalapeno

If you want to play stuff, knowing what you're doing, you need some grounding of scales & arpeggios. 

Only playing those though is D-U-L-L and sounds very bland, it is A way of learning but not THE way.

paul_c2

Niallseroreilly said:

I've come to this realisation that playing scales are bad for you.

The reason being that when I play a scale over a progression, I find myself riffing off and don't think about the progression or note choice at all. I end up playing what ive played a million times before. It also discourages me from hearing what im actually playing, Rather I'm just noodling around.

I tend to focus on arpeggios now as I find I listen to the progression more and I try to follow where the melody wants me to go. It isn't easy Ill admit and there is a lot of learning involved and the temptation to rip into a pentatonic at a moments notice is always there but I find it has a lot more benefits than the scale approach.

Obviously the title is tongue n cheek.

I'd love to hear what you guys think and maybe offer any advice if you think there are benefits im missing out on?

How do you play scales? As in, do you start at the root, and go up in stepwise fashion, in even time and dynamics, to the octave (or two, or three) above?

If so (and that's all you do) then yes scales are bad for you. You are what you practise, after all. BUT if you approach scales in a different way, for example:

1. Play up and down
2. Play scale, but randomly switch directions
3. Play any note in the scale, then any other note, keep going but don't repeat notes twice or play notes a step apart.
4. Go up and down in patterns, eg 13 24 35 46 or 123 234 345 456 567 or 14 25 36 47 etc
5. Go up and down, but crescendo (or diminuendo) during
6. As 5 but accelerando/ritardando
7. As 5 and 6 but opposite direction

etc etc

Then you'll have a more complete understanding of the scale(s).

Repeat for each position (there's 5, or 7 depending on how you count them), each key (12 of them) each mode (there's 7 of them). Making 588 combinations.

Then repeat for harmonic minor, melodic minor, wholetone, chromatic, blues, pentatonic, harmonic major, octatonic, etc etc

octatonic

Scales are a problem if you just play the scale.
It it better to be *thinking chords* even when playing scales, I find.

Bygone_Tones

yep, best to improvise within the chord in my opinion. much more difficult than just playing scales, but thats where the skill lies, and mastering it will make you a much better musician. scales are just the starting point to get to that stage.

Niallseroreilly

paul_c2 said:

Niallseroreilly said:

I've come to this realisation that playing scales are bad for you.

The reason being that when I play a scale over a progression, I find myself riffing off and don't think about the progression or note choice at all. I end up playing what ive played a million times before. It also discourages me from hearing what im actually playing, Rather I'm just noodling around.

I tend to focus on arpeggios now as I find I listen to the progression more and I try to follow where the melody wants me to go. It isn't easy Ill admit and there is a lot of learning involved and the temptation to rip into a pentatonic at a moments notice is always there but I find it has a lot more benefits than the scale approach.

Obviously the title is tongue n cheek.

I'd love to hear what you guys think and maybe offer any advice if you think there are benefits im missing out on?

How do you play scales? As in, do you start at the root, and go up in stepwise fashion, in even time and dynamics, to the octave (or two, or three) above?

If so (and that's all you do) then yes scales are bad for you. You are what you practise, after all. BUT if you approach scales in a different way, for example:

1. Play up and down
2. Play scale, but randomly switch directions
3. Play any note in the scale, then any other note, keep going but don't repeat notes twice or play notes a step apart.
4. Go up and down in patterns, eg 13 24 35 46 or 123 234 345 456 567 or 14 25 36 47 etc
5. Go up and down, but crescendo (or diminuendo) during
6. As 5 but accelerando/ritardando
7. As 5 and 6 but opposite direction

etc etc

Then you'll have a more complete understanding of the scale(s).

Repeat for each position (there's 5, or 7 depending on how you count them), each key (12 of them) each mode (there's 7 of them). Making 588 combinations.

Then repeat for harmonic minor, melodic minor, wholetone, chromatic, blues, pentatonic, harmonic major, octatonic, etc etc

I have used these approaches before yes and  i accept that they will make you sound more musical and are helpful when soloing.

But the question i am asking is are you being truly musical? Is the sound you want to make coming from your mind or is it derived from practising an exercise? 

Dont get me wrong i learned to improvise from scales but if the goal is to be fundamentally musical, i dare say i think they might be slightly counterproductive on the grand scale(no pun intended).

octatonic

paul_c2 said:

Then repeat for harmonic minor, melodic minor, wholetone, chromatic, blues, pentatonic, harmonic major, octatonic, etc etc

Yes?

Niallseroreilly

To be honest i think i will continue with both approaches, but i felt i had a lightbulb moment at the Jim Mullen gig. 

Its almost as if he looks at the fretboard as vast array of buttons that make sounds and when he wants that sound he presses the buttons. 

That might seem silly but can you imagine how liberating it would be to play so freely and have such a great connection between mind and fretboard?

ArchtopDave

I'm with you. I base my soloing on the chord tones of the underlying chords. This can be quite hard on the brain if the chords are constantly changing. I then branch out from that base. One can dip into relevant scale passages, or weave between "inside" and  "outside" notes, but, keeping an underlying chord tone structure, gives you a good base from which to move away from and then back to. I'd love to get to the stage where you can hear something in your head and know where to find it on the fretboard.

Roland

I hate scalar playing, and particularly when then scale pattern gets transposed as the chord changes. To my ears there are notes which reduce tension because they are part of the chord, and notes which increase tension because they are not. In my book playing scales is not improvising, it's playing through exercises. Sax players can be even worse than guitarists for doing this. 

Niallseroreilly

I think in essence what i dislike is playing something without knowing what it sounds like before you play it....

This is what i think scales make me do.

paul_c2

Niallseroreilly said:

I have used these approaches before yes and  i accept that they will make you sound more musical and are helpful when soloing.

But the question i am asking is are you being truly musical? Is the sound you want to make coming from your mind or is it derived from practising an exercise? 

Dont get me wrong i learned to improvise from scales but if the goal is to be fundamentally musical, i dare say i think they might be slightly counterproductive on the grand scale(no pun intended).

"Is the sound you want to make coming from your mind or......"

There is another skill, distinct from simply being able to play scales (or variations of them) where a musician can think up/silently hear in their mind, a sound or a tune, then render it on an instrument. I think the term is "audiation", or at least that aforementioned skill is a part of a broader skill known as audiation.

If you are weak or new at it, then using scales to help form the ideas of basic/simple melodies can be a good way to improve it. Ultimately though, its a different skill area than simply being adept at playing scales.

paul_c2

Roland said:

I hate scalar playing, and particularly when then scale pattern gets transposed as the chord changes. To my ears there are notes which reduce tension because they are part of the chord, and notes which increase tension because they are not. In my book playing scales is not improvising, it's playing through exercises. Sax players can be even worse than guitarists for doing this. 

I consider scales "vaguely useful" but with obvious limitations. For some instruments, scales are an easy way to approach the physical aspects of sounding the notes  - guitarists have it (very) easy, you press the string onto the fretboard and pluck the string, a note is assured to sound. A vocalist, brass instrument player, etc has many other physical things to deal with to play notes.

Personally when (sight) reading music on the bass, knowledge of scales can help to identify/simplify some passages.

Roland

That's true. I'm not belittling scales as a way of documenting knowledge. Just don't play them unless it's a quick run between two different ideas

stratman3142

I haven't got perfect pitch so scales provide me with waypoints (or templates for sound) so I know what notes are going to sound like relative to other notes and in relation to the backing.

Sometimes I think 'on the chord' or select notes outside a scale, but scales provide a navigation aid for my ear. I'm aurally lost without some sort of reference. Maybe it's different for you guys with perfect pitch.

edenfield99

You may already do this I find it helps to always practise scales (or arpeggios) over a backing track of the relevant chord rather than in isolation, this helps you hear the notes in context as you practice the different patterns given above rather than hearing a bunch of notes that aren't really connected to anything. This helps you get closer to the 'play what you hear thing'. I got this from one of the Aebersold books and although I wouldn't say I can play what I hear a 100% of the time I'm much better than before I started to do this. 

edenfield99

Also singing the notes as you play them helps a lot 

Veganic

I'll preface this with I am not very good but 
I do try to think about what I am doing or to rationalise it.

I see scales and arpeggios as the same thing. 

Running up and down scales can be boring (or hypnotic depending on your viewpoint).

Sticking to chord tones can be dull.   But combine them and you can find something melodic.  

I see the fretboard as a map scales are the routes between the chord tones which are nice stopping point.

But the stopping points don't have to be tones from the chord we are playing over. We all have our favourites, 2nds always seem not too discordant but colourful, if you can get away with a maj 7 it always sounds interesting, sixths I am still coming to terms with. 

Also you can find routes off the beaten path if you want to 

   I find playing the "wrong" arp can sound cool, say Cmaj7 over an Am (hmm, that isn't that wrong but you get the idea) as long as it is from the scale I am working with. 

Sometimes I will make my "own" pentatonics and try to stick to those notes depending on the chords.  Say root, 2nd 3rd 4th maj7. Scale or arp?

I haven't got my head around changing scales or note choice with chord changes (unless it is country) but I try to find the wrong notes that sound right or some dissonance. For example my first riff of the week is mostly E phrigian but I resolve to F# after playing the F for most of it.  Not really improv though.

But after all that I still sound shit, kinda like a pissed-up Alex Lifeson playing covers of REM songs. So make of that what you will.