5 poxy watts!

Beexter

I cannot believe I did a band rehearsal last night and had to switch my Mesa Express down to the 5 watt setting! On the 15w setting, I could barely turn the master volume up without being too loud. Even on the 5 watt setting, I didn't get the master over 10o'clock (and the gain wasn't all that high either, running on the Blues channel) -  I'm genuinely shocked.

OK, it was a very small rehearsal room but even so, I was stood right next to the drummer with a PA speaker in one ear and a cymbal in the other and the Mesa cut through clear as you like. This amp continues to surprise me...

I thought I was getting a handle on the whole watts vs volume thing but I clearly haven't got a clue. Seems like the only way to tell if an amp is going to be loud enough for your purposes is to try it in the environment you're going to use it. I'd never have thought that a 15w amp could be too loud when playing next to an acoustic drummer, especially based on my previous experiences.

Clearly, some manufacturers can squeeze a lot more volume out of 15w than others can - how do they do it? It's not all to do with the speakers either because my cab/ speaker are a constant.

So in my limited experience, Mesa sound bloomin' loud for their power rating - what other manufactures achieve the same magic trick and how do they do it?

Lebarque

It's the old adage: Speaker efficiency, size and EQ can have a much greater influence than wattage.

vasselmeyer

Let me point you towards a couple of mini essays by Bruce Egnater (of Egnater amps).

Part 1 Watts versus Volume
Part 2  Speaker Dispertion  

stickyfiddle

I often used my old 5:25 on 5W mode for rehearsals. They're pokey little things!

ecc83

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633937-Sound-Level-50-126/dp/B0015NSTLI

A "C" weighting is better for recording monitor calibration but "A" probably gives a better idea of the loudness of guitar signals?

Perceived amplifier loudness is very dependant on voicing, also distortion levels, we find distorted sounds louder than very clean ones.

Rooms can have a dramatic effect. Transpose the band to a slightly bigger room with carpets, heavy curtains and a lot of soft furnishings and what was brain melting becomes tolerable!

Dave.

Danny1969

Lol .... I've done hundreds of gigs with a 5 watt amp
 ....  Put through sensitive speaker it really is much louder than you imagine . To be fair my HT5  is actually closer to around 8 W when dirty but still... 

Beexter

Admittedly, it's a different band now - the drummer in the previous band was very heavy handed compared to the current drummer but even so, I used to rely on a 50w Vox Night Train to be heard so for the Mesa to cut through with just 5 watts is hard to fathom, especially as it's running through the same cab and speaker.

@vasselmeyer - thanks for those links, interesting read.

olafgarten

A 50w amp is only twice as loud as a 5w one. 

ESBlonde

Can I borrow your drummer?

The thing is some drummists are very capable of sounding huge without smacking 7 pails of crap out of the skins. Others have no dynamic control or flair. Some will tell you it's not possible to get the sound without hitting them hard and others prove that statement wrong (and what would we guitarists know about volume and tone eh!)?

Also 5 watts is just a number unless you know what level of distortion is allowed in that, for a HiFi amp the decimal places would be several, for many guitar amps THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) could be as much as 5% which would be many tens of times more. So a squeaky clean 5w of valve will be significantly louder when allowed to distort at single figure THD and still sound cleanish but starting to break up.

Or in a single phrase....it depends.

JayGee

stickyfiddle said:

I often used my old 5:25 on 5W mode for rehearsals. They're pokey little things!

This.

I've also accidentally played a couple of (small) gigs that way.

Really and truly it doesn't make much difference to the volume as perceived standing in front of it, it's just that all of your clean headroom goes away (it does sound absolutely glorious on the clean channel with the gain up and the master dimed but it's not remotely clean!), the filth channel goes (even more) squashy and compressed, and it doesn't carry to the back of the room very well if there are a decent number of people in it!

RandallFlagg

I often use my Victory V40 in low power mode which is 7 watts and it's loud

Sassafras

I must say the type of drummer you have makes a big difference.
I've mostly been very lucky in the past with drummers that had a light touch but could thump out a heavy jungle rhythm when needed.
The few times when I've played alongside absolute beasts no amount of wattage could compensate for their apocalyptic volume.

Beexter

I certainly agree that drummers can have a big impact (see what I did there.....) but clearly, not all amps are created equal.

My first valve amp was a 15w Laney Cub Head (again, played through the same 1x12 MJW cab and Eminence Wizard that I'm using now) and I had the master control on that wide open and just bumped up the gain as much as I could before the crunch started so I was getting the loudest possible clean tone I could. By comparison, the Mesa slays it for clean volume, even on the 5 watt setting and I've never even got the master on the Mesa over half-way!

This brings me back to my original point that judging an amps volume capabilities by watts alone is not as obvious a measure as I once thought it was - 2 identically rated amps (in wattage terms) through the same cab/speaker combo can yield vastly different volume levels.

Aside from Mesa, what other amp manufacturers seem unfeasibly loud for their rated wattage?

slacker

The Eminence Wizard is rated by the manufacturer at 103db. Stick a 95db Jensen P12R in there and hear what happens. It's still 5 watts (maybe) but it's not as loud. 

The only problem I have with watts is when someone buys a 50w valve amp for a classic rock pub band and wonder why it's too loud. I played bass for years in a band with a heavy handed drummer and a guitarist who used a 50w half stack. People always complained it was too loud. I think they were complainign as I never took my ER20s out. 

slacker

Beexter said:

Aside from Mesa, what other amp manufacturers seem unfeasibly loud for their rated wattage?

Matchless and Bad Cat. Impossibly loud amps. Wonderful cleans though. 

siraxeman

I have the 2x12 Express 5:50....I once (about 3months ago) did a full gig on the 5w setting. It was loud enough - just! I thought it was on the 50w setting (I checked and thought I saw it on 50w in the dim lighting of the venue, so figured my valves were shot) anyway in better lighting when I got home I looked again and it had been set on 5w all night. The clean channel was crunching up like a good un so there was no real headroom at all - which is what initially made me wonder. It was lower volume than we usually play, but not massively. Next gig I had it on 50w and well I was having to turn down cos it was just too much on the settings I had it on initially. I know the clean headroom/volume of the clean channel is definitely noticeably louder than my DSL50...which crunches up a bit on just over halfway on the wick with its gain on 50%.

as for a 15w setting? Is that a typo or do the newer ones (5:50+) have a 5w and 15w setting besides full power?

also a Q for the knowledgeable guys like ICBM n co....running an amp on a lower power setting is 1 valve being ran in none push pull circuit right ? If so does that = uneven wear on that valve compared to its partner when ran as a pair (or quad in 100w amps) ? ...just thinking out loud !

Teetonetal

I can't get above 5w on most stages. More than that and there's a pa to mic up through. I'm not playing anything clean though.

ICBM

siraxeman said:

also a Q for the knowledgeable guys like ICBM n co....running an amp on a lower power setting is 1 valve being ran in none push pull circuit right ? If so does that = uneven wear on that valve compared to its partner when ran as a pair (or quad in 100w amps) ? ...just thinking out loud !

There are many ways of doing it. In a four-valve amp you can turn two valves off, or you can switch pentodes to triode (both of these roughly halve the power), or in a push-pull amp you can turn off one side, which is what Mesa do in the Express. Or you can reduce the HT voltage, as Orange do in the Tiny Terror.

Turning off half the valves usually does stop wear on the ones that aren't being used, because it's normally done by disconnecting the main current path through the valve. (Although it could theoretically cause other damage by 'cathode poisoning.') Turning off one side usually doesn't stop it entirely, because it's done simply by switching off the signal input - the valve is actually left running at idle, in order to maintain the hum cancellation in the OT - but it will be reduced.

It's normally not going to make a huge difference, but if you run you amp hard in the 5W setting a lot it might be a good idea to swap the valves round occasionally since the active one will still wear faster. Maybe every few months, or every year.

Beexter

Mine's the 5:25+ so has 5, 15 and 25w settings 

siraxeman said:

I have the 2x12 Express 5:50....I once (about 3months ago) did a full gig on the 5w setting. It was loud enough - just! I thought it was on the 50w setting (I checked and thought I saw it on 50w in the dim lighting of the venue, so figured my valves were shot) anyway in better lighting when I got home I looked again and it had been set on 5w all night. The clean channel was crunching up like a good un so there was no real headroom at all - which is what initially made me wonder. It was lower volume than we usually play, but not massively. Next gig I had it on 50w and well I was having to turn down cos it was just too much on the settings I had it on initially. I know the clean headroom/volume of the clean channel is definitely noticeably louder than my DSL50...which crunches up a bit on just over halfway on the wick with its gain on 50%.

as for a 15w setting? Is that a typo or do the newer ones (5:50+) have a 5w and 15w setting besides full power?

nick79

The volume on my Mesa F50 never really goes much further than a quarter of the way up, which is a shame as when it's getting on for halfway it really starts sounding good. I'm considering either getting an attenuator or picking up a Mini Rectifier or Mk5 25. I suspect 25w will be more than plenty but i might be able to get the power section up enough to start making it's magic. 

ecc83

olafgarten said:

A 50w amp is only twice as loud as a 5w one. 

In theory. ICBM has mentioned a few times that the simple  "ten x power is only twice the subjective loudness" statement is flawed in the real world.

For one thing you would never find a 5watt and 50watt amplifiers that were identical in every respect OTHER than power output* They are sure to have different voicings. Then, even if you A/B'ed then through the same speaker, said speaker would have to be of some 200W+ rating in order not to thermally compress.

The "loudness/dB theory" was, AFAIK in any case arrived at with pure tones or possibly pink or white noise none of which are remotely musical.

*Power of guitar amps (as I have mentioned before) is not well specified. The "proper" way to do it is almost never done for guitar amps. BTW an dirty HT-5 hits nearer 10W with the wind in the west and mains at 240. All B's speccs are done at a measured 230 volts in.

Dave.