This FRFR business.....

Stinkfoot

Hi all...relative newbie to this forum here but already picking up lots of good advice, and wallet-worrying recommendations!

After years of gigging with the traditional valve amp + pedals, I (like many of us I suspect) can't help that my curiosity has been piqued by the recent flurry of activity around the Helix/Kemper/AxeFX + FRFR set-up.

I can definitely see some of the benefits and have considered taking the leap, but I still can't quite get my ahead around the FRFR option supposedly ensuring that you are hearing exactly the same sound through your monitor as is going out front through the PA. Given that there are so many differing opinions on which monitor is best (QSC/Yamaha/Atomic and the like) surely it's all a bit irrelevant if the PA speakers are something different again and will undoubtedly have their own colouration of the tone, plus whatever EQ the soundman decides is to his taste?

I really like the idea of trying this, but it seems it could be a little futile spending ages on choosing a monitor that gives you the foldback sound you're happy with if it's then going to potentially sound way different through FOH. And that's surely an element that's largely going to be beyond your control on most gigs where they have their own PA/soundman?

I'd like to give this new approach a go but need a bit more convincing really, and as yet I haven't seen any bands around my area where any guitarists are using this so I can pick their brains about it. It's not that I'm unhappy with my traditional rig, but I think it's always a good move to keep the onstage volume low and also a bonus to minimise the number of boxes and cases to cart about to gigs.

 I've seen various threads around this subject but none quite clarifying the consistency of onstage/offstage sound. I think I could get used to not having an amp behind me, if I was reassured a good sound was going out front. It would be really crap to think you've got a great tone going on, only to realise it sounds pants to everyone through the PA!

Any first-hand experience (good or bad) or advice on this one would be much appreciated.

Cheers!

sweepy

As you are only down the road from me, you are more than welcome to try my Axe-Fx with Marshall power amp and Yamaha DXR12 monitors . All of these units require a lot more than a cursory dabble

Jack_

I think it's easy to overthink it too much...

Yes, all FRFR cabs will be slightly different, but as long as we're not at the bottom end of the market, the variations will actually be quite small in the grand scheme of things. Same with FOH, if you're playing somewhere with a good PA, there will be variations, but I wouldn't worry about it.

ESBlonde

As much as an FRFR cab may vary, the environment you place it (and your ears) in can have a significant effect on the hearing perception.
Today you are at an outdoor fesival stage, tomorrow the back room of a pub with low ceiling, the next day an exhibition centre with marble columns, walls and floor etc.
The Sound reinforcement dude will be battling his own issues with those problems in your sound and that of your stage buddies.

Stinkfoot

Thanks sweepy - that's really decent of you. May well PM you in the New Year if I'm still having this dilemma!

And it's true, there could be an element of 'overthinking' going on here!!

crunchman

ESBlonde said:

As much as an FRFR cab may vary, the environment you place it (and your ears) in can have a significant effect on the hearing perception.
Today you are at an outdoor fesival stage, tomorrow the back room of a pub with low ceiling, the next day an exhibition centre with marble columns, walls and floor etc.
The Sound reinforcement dude will be battling his own issues with those problems in your sound and that of your stage buddies.

That's true with a conventional guitar amp as well.

sweepy

No problem at all, it is a big step and it is very easy to chase your. Tail down the proverbial rabbit-hole honing patches in minute detail

RandallFlagg

I went Axe-FX and FRFR with the Atomic CLR but found that no amount of EQ tweaking would take away that hi-fi sheen, it wasn't giving me that fat warm mid-rangey guitar speaker sound and feel.

Went back to tube amp & cab, got fed up tweaking after 6 months. Maybe I was doing it wrong but if it wasn't coming by tweaking a few tone controls then I couldn't;t be bothered in the end.

I did find that my recorded tones direct into Logic were better than I was getting through the CLR, it was great for that.

Modelling and FRFR is hugely more flexible and accommodating for small stage and for recording and I miss that ease with which I could get good tones for recording without the need for mics, cabs etc.

John_A

Gone Helx and FRFR recently and it's been a revelation!  The main reason to use a FRFR monitor is so it sounds very similar to your FOH sound where running a valve amp on stage requires a bit of fafffing around.  It's the easiest way to sound very good that I've found

RandallFlagg

John_A said:

Gone Helx and FRFR recently and it's been a revelation!  The main reason to use a FRFR monitor is so it sounds very similar to your FOH sound where running a valve amp on stage requires a bit of fafffing around.  It's the easiest way to sound very good that I've found

What cab are you using @John_A ?

John_A

A Yamaha DXR10. I used to use it in to the fx return of my Jet City in to a 2x12 cab and for me the FRFR solution is far better.  Keeping the stage volume down and using the pa keeps everyone happy.  I've also used a cheap Alto powered speaker and it sounds great through that too

crunchman

If you don't want to spend Yamaha DXR10 money then something like an EV ZLX12P will be pretty good for around £200 less. It will be a bit more bulky with the 12" speaker rather than a 10" though.

monquixote

Having gigged with a modeller I don't think FRFR is worth doing.

The two approaches I've found work well is either going straight into the desk and using in ear monitoring, or running into the return of a valve amp and using a real cab (The JCA22H is perfect for this and costs peanuts)

John_A

Different people will find different things that work for them.  I was never happy with the sound in to my jet city fx return and much happier with the Dxr.  We don't use iem's and both myself and the band need to hear me on stage.  

Roland

The one thing I miss with a totally quiet stage is my guitar feels dead. An on-stage speaker give that bit of acoustic coupling which livens things up. 

John_A said:

Different people will find different things that work for them.  I was never happy with the sound in to my jet city fx return and much happier with the Dxr.  We don't use iem's and both myself and the band need to hear me on stage.  

Yes, @monquixote and I play different styles.

Handsome_Chris

I've been using the Axe-FX II and Matrix GT-FX1500 BD with both FRFR cabs and a 4x12 with great results. 

I mainly use the 4x12 as playing Black Sabbath through couple of FRFR 1x12s looks disrespectful.

ICBM

You could easily have a FRFR 4x12" - stereo, if you want - and no-one would be any the wiser...

OK it wouldn't technically be a 4x12" any more, it would be a 2x12"+2x4"+2xhorn or something - but it would look the same.

Voxman

Jack_ said:

I think it's easy to overthink it too much...

Yes, all FRFR cabs will be slightly different, but as long as we're not at the bottom end of the market, the variations will actually be quite small in the grand scheme of things. Same with FOH, if you're playing somewhere with a good PA, there will be variations, but I wouldn't worry about it.

Exactly right.  I gig my Vox Tonelab SE through the PA and have a foldback monitor speaker.  All I care about is that the audience tone is good, and that I can hear myself through the foldback.  Any nuances of different tone really don't matter. 

FRFR will get you nearer the amp/cab modelling tone that the MFX manufacturer had in mind when creating the models,  But bear in mind that most if not all MFX units have a Global EQ adjustment to better suit line out (PA, headphones etc) or to be run at the front end of a guitar amp - and although there will be some subtle differences it will still sound good.  And for gigging, these differences are probably not noticeable anyway.

And as for this business of turning cab models off if going through a guitar amp/cab, don't be put-off by 'purists' who've as often asnot probably never played the real thing anyway. Sure, if you prefer the natural sound of the cab, great,  But using different cab models even with a real amp/cab can still sound good - so forget so called 'rules' and just go by the tone you like.  In fact, when it comes to tone, there are no rules - who cares if it doesn't sound exactly like a 1963 Vox AC30 through  a 2 x 12 cab fitted with Alnico Blues...if you like the tone and it sounds good to you, it is good!  Trust your own ears and don't blindly follow conventional 'wisdom'...because it isn't always that wise!