Sound proofing ~ help required please

ChrisMusic

Where we am staying right now, and for the foreseeable future potentially, has the inevitable plusses and minuses.

The major negative point is that the rooms above transmit an inordinate amount of noise, which is particularly problematic in the bedroom, especially as the room above is the main living area for a holiday flat !  Whilst most people are pretty considerate, thankfully, it seems that many have no concept of living with others around them.  Some keep the most antisocial of hours, and often exhibit that modern day attribute of a misplaced 'sense of entitlement'.  When did that become entrenched behaviour ?

The main problem is impact noise from footsteps etc.  You can hear voices and TV etc, but that is not so disturbing of sleep as banging footsteps, which during night hours are somewhat akin to an alarm call, as they would be to our wild ancestors.  It is like living with your head inside a drum, with random strangers beating it repeatedly at random intervals (or some women who seem to walk on their heels, and who inexplicably need to transit one side of the room to the other thirty times on the trot with frantic footsteps, what the hell is all that about?)  With age seemingly comes rampant insomnia, so once I am awake that is anywhere between an hour and a half to three hours until I fall back asleep.  Stress and adrenalin allowing, that is !  This situation is not good for one's health.

The building is a poorly converted Georgian house extension, which would have been the servants quarters before it was separated off fifty odd years ago.  The owner, who is a lovely and very artistic lady, assured me that they had a suspended floor put in when the flat was converted, and a suspended ceiling in ours.  Well I just had a meeting with her and the very nice chap who was her "builder", and as everything round here it is all a bit of a bodge done on the cheap by well intentioned but inexperienced people.

The supposed suspended floor is a moveable feast of old oak floorboards, no wonder the whole place creaks like the Mary Celeste, they were probably reclaimed from it !  Not even lip service to suspension, just some thick underlay and fitted carpet.  Enough to deaden footsteps in the room above, so that people there are blissfully unaware of the excruciating extent of Muppet's Animal inspired drum solo that they are re-creating in the room below.

Our original ceiling is intact, with presumably the only sound deadening betwixt dancing oak floorboards, joists and it, being the skeletal remains of a couple of centuries of spiders and the odd house mouse.  It turns out that our supposed suspended ceiling is a false ceiling four inches below, battened to the wall and main ceiling beam, acoustically treated by filling the void with that old 1960s stalwart, yes you've guessed it, polystyrene tiles !!!   Sound deadening properties of a butterflies wing, try scratching one and check the acoustic properties, tinnier than cheap iPhone earbuds.  Oh, and thermal properties to be truly frightened of, hint of a flame and I'm out in the garden, the door is only eight feet away, and I can move bloody fast if need be !

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

So, now I've cut a short story long, what advice is there about improving the sound insulation from the flat above.  Either advice I can pass on, or maybe even act on myself if it comes to that.  Everything is done on the cheap here, so whilst I would appreciate knowing the proper solutions, it will inevitably end up needing to be done on a budget to get it sorted.

Any and all help gratefully accepted,

Cheers,
Chris

spark240

Sadly I think the noise is best teated by stopping  it being so bad at source, so treating the floor above is better.

However , given that this is now unlikely, what is the possibility of treating your ceiling?

I assume your suspended ceiling is plasterboard, so essentially a void, best solution is to access this void and insert Rockwool Acoustic grade bats, these have excellent properties.

How big is  the room?....its easier than you might think to actually suspend another ceiling just 100mm below yours and insulate as above, 

octatonic

I've been in this situation so I'm pretty confident about how right my next statement is. 

Save yourself a lot of stress and unhappiness- move your music room somewhere else.
Sorry.

ChrisMusic

Thanks for your reply @spark240 , this may be the best chance to get anything done as the owner is hoping to sell the flat above, at least that is this week's idea !  Probably the best chance for me too as that is a bit of leverage.

She appears prepared to get the carpet taken up and the floorboards screwed down (what all of them?), and improve the underlay, so there is a chance of her entertaining a better solution as it is in her interest to do so (until the next idea comes along!).  It would be great to create some isolation, heavy footsteps above even rattle the fairly substantial Georgian sash windows in their cases !

The room is approx 18 ft square FYI.

As to the ceiling, she may be prepared to pay for remedial work, I guess it would be possible to insert rock wool, any advice on how to do that, what grade, and how to handle that nasty stuff safely would be appreciated.  If she doesn't I may well need to budget for that myself, the current situation is untenable.

It could even be possible to add another suspended ceiling, there is plenty of height to play with...

Fuengi

I'm an architectural designer building sound studios near Guildford currently.

There are two forms if sound you need to consider: Airborne (TV, radio, voice) and impact (walking, doors banging, furniture moving). Each has different solutions. 

I'd go with something like Isover acoustic insulation between the floors and possibly underboard your existing plasterboard ceiling with a soundboard (check the British Gypsum website.

If you can get two different thicknesses of plasterboard / soundboard you will stop more frequencies. 

ChrisMusic

Hey @octatonic , music room ?, that would be a luxury, no it's the noise encroachment into the bedroom and it's affect on sleeping that is the main issue here.  Acoustic improvements would have other benefits though  

We have two other musicians living here, one Pro, and the other an enthusiastic learner, so mostly playing is thankfully not an issue (well not too much of one).  Steve (flat below us) said earlier, "wind it up mate that's what amps are made for !" Not too sure he knows how loud this one is !

ChrisMusic

Cheers @Fuengi , I appreciate your suggestions, do you have any web links to start meaningful research into that please.  I know Google is my friend, but you have the benefit of experience in targeting the right resources.  Thanks in anticipation.

It is mostly impact noise causing the problems for us, but it would be nice to address airborne issues too, if achievable.

ChrisMusic

@spark240 , you mentioned putting acoustic grade bats into the void, what exactly do you mean ?
I have this vision in my mind of the winged and toothy variety, probably inspired my earlier sentence:
"Our original ceiling is intact, with presumably the only sound deadening betwixt dancing oak floorboards, joists and it, being the skeletal remains of a couple of centuries of spiders and the odd house mouse."
Either that, or too much Harry Potter on ITV !

:o3

octatonic

ChrisMusic said:

Hey @octatonic , music room ?, that would be a luxury, no it's the noise encroachment into the bedroom and it's affect on sleeping that is the main issue here.  Acoustic improvements would have other benefits though  

We have two other musicians living here, one Pro, and the other an enthusiastic learner, so mostly playing is thankfully not an issue (well not too much of one).  Steve (flat below us) said earlier, "wind it up mate that's what amps are made for !" Not too sure he knows how loud this one is !

Ah, I misunderstood- usually when people post for soundproofing they are talking about music rooms.
For a bedroom I'm afraid the advice still stands, short of decoupling the room from the building there isn't much that will actually work.

Carpet and under floor insulation is going to be the best of the affordable fixes but that has to happen in the room above.

My advice then is get some decent fitted soft earplugs (ACS would be better than Read Audio here) and sleep with them in.

ChrisMusic

Yes I read your posts on your earplugs, Read Audio seem to be ahead flat response for gigs, but can you really sleep comfortably using the ACS ones, and without compromise ?  I have tried with the orange foam ones and they are uncomfortable, and don't trap the low end which makes impact noise so insidious.

BTW, @octatonic , what process do you go through to get moulds made for Read Audio ?

bob21

ACS plugs are very definitely sleep-able. I do this on a fairly regular basis to nap backstage at festivals & gigs etc! I have Pro Moulds with the Blanks as an option for the filter hole - but ACS do a dedicated no-filter sleep plug that would be better suited.

The other option is what I also often do - use a decent set of IEMs with decent isolation - similar blocking effects as the plugs, but you can listen to a bit of Radio 4 radio play, which normally sends me off to sleep quite nicely!

Easiest thing with ACS is to buy through boots - they will handle the mould creation etc, and deliver to store so you can pick up. Nice and easy. Sign up to the 'HearingCare Priority Club' (couple of spam emails a year) and get 15% off too..

Emp_Fab

Approach the noise-makers in blood-stained underpants, grinning like a maniac, holding one of these and saying "you're not one of the noisy ones are you ?, we don't like the noisy ones, do we ?", before answering yourself in a different voice "No we don't".

Fuengi

Links below. You might be able to put both below your existing ceiling if you can live with reducing the ceiling height.

I'd call isover and discuss the details with them before ordering. See if you can open up the ceiling of the floor above so you know exactly what you're dealing with first.

Make sure whoever does the work installs it in accordance with the manufacturers spec. 

https://www.isover.co.uk/products/acoustic-partition-roll-apr-1200

http://www.british-gypsum.com/products/gyproc-soundbloc

BRISTOL86

I feel your pain as we lived with inconsiderate neighbours for some time. 

For a cheap and dirty workaround these earplugs are very effective and surprisingly comfortable.

The trick to them is manipulating your outer ear to get them down into the exact right spot before they expand. 

Can be a bit tricky to get in but once they're in they stay in and are very effective for noise that is more than a few feet from you. 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B018RIA3L2/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1483171531&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=earplugs&dpPl=1&dpID=41h2RzlpF1L&ref=plSrch

octatonic

ChrisMusic said:

Yes I read your posts on your earplugs, Read Audio seem to be ahead flat response for gigs, but can you really sleep comfortably using the ACS ones, and without compromise ?  I have tried with the orange foam ones and they are uncomfortable, and don't trap the low end which makes impact noise so insidious.

BTW, @octatonic , what process do you go through to get moulds made for Read Audio ?

I really wouldn't try Read for sleeping in- they are made from a harder acrylic type plastic than the ACS plugs which are made of silicone.
But the process was me riding into London to have the moulds taken and then they delivered them 2 days later.

I also went to ACS to get the moulds done for the silicone plugs- I use them on motorbike and for sleeping with on planes etc.
There is no chance of using the Read audio plugs for either due to the hardness of the material- it wouldn't be comfortable lying on your side and there is so little give with acrylic that I can't remove a motorcycle helmet without significant discomfort.
The Read audio work better as ear plugs though- flatter response and a better seal as they are physically bigger.

ChrisMusic

Emp_Fab said:

Approach the noise-makers in blood-stained underpants, grinning like a maniac, holding one of these and saying "you're not one of the noisy ones are you ?, we don't like the noisy ones, do we ?", before answering yourself in a different voice "No we don't".
.....

So you heard about my last attempt to stifle the noise then, and they promised they wouldn't publish too !

I was caught between LOL and Wisdom for that, luckily my sense of humour is (arguably) still intact so LOL it is then  

ChrisMusic

Cheers for the extra info on ear plugs @bob21 @octatonic & @BRISTOL86 , I do need to get some anyway so your input on that is greatly appreciated.  I survived my early years in the music business without tinnitus with little more than chewed up tissue for ear plugs, some very big events too.  Not the recommended way to go though.  After recently coming back to music, I really do need some proper professional protection, so thanks chaps.

I like the idea of IEMs, I used to love sleeping with music on all night when I was a teenager, happy days  

*** Although I would much prefer to sort this with proper sound proofing, less compromise, more quality of life.
Oh, and I could also turn my amp up a bit louder ~ win, win IMO.

ChrisMusic

Thanks for the good advice, and the links too @Fuengi , I'll check that out, it also gives me the backup to pass on to the owner for approval, cheers  

ChrisMusic

Does anyone know if improving the underlay in the flat above will make much difference, or what to spec if it will ?

There seems little point in the owner wasting money on anything that does not give a noticeable improvement in the situation, I really need to give her targeted suggestions.

Gassage

Chris, about 2 years ago I posted this on here

Acoustic tiles will reduce reverberation in the room, but won't do anything for the sound insulation of the wall.

In order to improve the sound insulation of the wall you need to provide isolation and mass. The best way of doing this is to install a new wall leaf fully independent of the existing wall i.e. 

1. Tack a layer of 12.5 mm British gypsum soundbloc plaster board on the existing plaster and lath wall (Provides mass and covers any holes, splits and gaps etc).

2. Provide a new stud (timber or metal) at least 25 mm from and completely independent of the existing wall. Fill the gaps between the vertical studs with British Gypsum Isover RD35 foil faced acoustic slab; the foil facing the existing party wall and the fibrous material facing into the basement - take care to make sure the slabs do not touch the existing wall by holding in place with straps or chicken wire. (the gap between the existing wall and new stud provides isolation, and the acoustic slab provides limited mass and reduces resonance in the new wall void)

3. Horizontally fix British Gypsum RB1 resilient bars to the room side of the vertical stud members at 450mm vertical centres (provides isolation).

4. Form a new wall surface on the room side of the stud by first fixing a layer of 19 mm British Gypsum Gyproc Plank to the horizontal resilient bars, avoiding fixing through to the stud framework underneath (its very important to fix to the resilient bars not the stud). Then over lay a layer of British Gypsum 15 mm FireLine plasterboard, again avoid fixing through to the stud framework underneath, with joints staggered so that they do not match those in the layer of Gyproc Plank underneath (Provides mass - important to use these PBs as this is they are the densest thickest PBs on the market, also important to use the different thicknesses as this compensates for the acoustic weakness each board will have at different frequencies of sound).

5. Skim and set the new wall surface, taking care to fill any gaps at the junction with the floor, ceiling or side walls with plaster and mastic.

6. Plant electric and heating services etc. on the new wall surface do not, repeat, do not; chase services through the new wall or otherwise penetrate it or you will be wasting money.

The above work can reduce sound transmission by 20 dB (four fold), but does mean losing around 125 mm of the room. You can reduce the room take by planting the above on battens fixed to the existing wall, but it is less effective. There is also a British gypsum fluff lined plaster board product called Tri-line that can be directly fixed to the wall, but is less than half as good as the independent wall leaf.

Further limits on the possible improvement in sound insulation come from:

a) the degree of sound insulation you already have from the wall i.e. it could be low so that the final amount after even complex works will not be very high.
b) flanking transmission via the ceiling and floor - but the direct route via the wall is normally dominant.

I avoid any building product marketed as being "acoustic" as they are rarely significantly more effective than normal products used intelligently, but usually cost a lot more.

The above advice is of course supplied without any implied or explicit liability on my part for the resulting effect or any collateral issues.

ChrisMusic

Great stuff @Gassage , thanks