New laws for Rosewood

Rabs

Ohhh nooo.....   Apparently this means that you will now need a certificate to export or even carry any guitars internationally made with Rosewood from Jan 2 2017......

Theres a couple of articles

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/29/wildlife-summit-cracks-down-on-illegal-rosewood-trade

http://acousticguitar.com/will-new-rosewood-trade-restrictions-have-implications-for-acoustic-guitarists/

UPDATE: Luthiers Mercantile International, one of the world’s leading suppliers of exotic tonewoods, released a statement saying that they and other distributors will not be able to sell any rosewood internationally, unless a future annotation makes finished products—such as a pre-carved guitar neck or kerfing—exempt. “We hope to know more soon. Unfortunately, without such an annotation, the import and export of instruments with rosewood components would be affected,” writes sales manager Chris Herrod.

“The market is rife with dishonesty, even within established businesses that enjoy a positive reputation in the United States. Indian Rosewood has always been the welcome exception. We regret that it has to be grouped with the other species of rosewood, but by lumping all the rosewoods together it removes the responsibility of customs officials from having to distinguish between the different species of rosewood, which can often be very difficult.”

At a global wildlife summit held this week in Johannesburg, South Africa, delegates representing 181 countries agreed to get serious about the illegal rosewood trade, The Guardian reported earlier today. Rosewood is, of course, a popular tonewood used in the manufacture of guitars, and — according to the UN Office of Drugs and Crime — is the world’s most trafficked wild product.

For a discussion of the legal implications of owning a guitar constructed of Brazilian rosewood — taped last month in advance of the Convention on the Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) summit — watch above as Michael Watts, of the London-based North American Guitar company, interviews John Thomas, a guitar-playing law professor at Quinnipiac University in Hamden, Connecticut.

olafgarten

No more international concert tours.

Jack_

Can you believe a forum dedicated to guitars took 3 months to dig up such info?

/s.

matone

The usual sledgehammer to crack nut legislators.....

usedtobe

Local bands for local people..!

Plectrum

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/92333/rosewood-ban-cites-ii#latest

Rabs

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species...    Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...

And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions...   Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

Garthy

Rabs said:

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species...    Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...

And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions...   Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

  Aren't the trees for Indian rosewood also listed as vulnerable by the IUCN?

Gassage

OK, put simply, if I take my preCBS strats abroad, what do I have to do?

Rabs

Garthy said:

Rabs said:

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species...    Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...

And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions...   Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

  Aren't the trees for Indian rosewood also listed as vulnerable by the IUCN?

Yes... Thats what I mean, one of the articles I read said that they have added ALL Rosewood species but they did that so that customs don't have to be experts on what species they are looking at so its any Rosewood.. But I think the actual main issues are people exporting Brazilian which has been endangered for a while now. 

Rabs

Gassage said:

OK, put simply, if I take my preCBS strats abroad, what do I have to do?

Well as far as I can see..  Its only stuff that's made after 2017...  So if you have a date on the guitar that's probably proof enough...  But don't quote me on that...  I guess if anyone is traveling with Rosewood they had better find out exactly...

But anyone who buys a new guitar this year say, will be effected.

Voxman

This is getting ridiculous and is complete overkill.  

Bridgehouse

Gassage said:

OK, put simply, if I take my preCBS strats abroad, what do I have to do?

Does it have a BRW board? If it does then nothing different to now - you need a CITES certificate and a butt plug to stop customs both here and abroad from giving you a jolly good one, taking your Strat off you and burning it cos you're a bad bad environment hating monster.

guitars4you

Gassage said:

OK, put simply, if I take my preCBS strats abroad, what do I have to do?

massive can of worms so let me know when you find out Gassage

Just had a Custom Shop Tele arrive today brand new from Fender, hence flown to Fender Europe, then UPS to me -   no cities paperwork - I know I can sell it to you or any UK customer with no paperwork, but can I sell it to a customer in the EU with no paperwork - currently no customs as part of the EU still, so no paperwork work required as no inspections taking place

Not sure how 'this Strat was made before CITIES' stacks up - If you buy from the USA today a 1962 original Strat and get it shipped over to the UK you will need paperwork and the dealer has to supply it - buy it privately someone will still have to sort  out appropriate cities paperwork - But at least this Strat would now have paperwork for ny future transactions - Yours is now a touch of a can of worms because can you prove it was imported into the UK before CITIES with appropriate sales receipt, to effectively show that no paperwork is required - Even with or without this it will still restrict any future sales and/or gigging out of the EU and UK

Rabs

Lets put it this way...  If you try and carry something abroad that they don't like and you don't have any paperwork they can actually confiscate if from you...... 

Anyone want to take that chance?

guitars4you

Rabs said:

Lets put it this way...  If you try and carry something abroad that they don't like and you don't have any paperwork they can actually confiscate if from you...... 

Anyone want to take that chance?

but commercially this is bad news - subject to what the final policy is regarding Brexit, will determine if any of us can buy/sell or gig that guitar in the EU without appropriate paperwork - with the current situation of no customs/boundaries within the EU we are still okay to buy/sell, especially via shipping agents - not sure about clearing Custom's at an airport

Not sure how builders like @Feline will  find it getting cities paperwork for any guitars they sell - so maybe any comments welcome 

GSPBASSES

Rabs said:

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species...    Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...

And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions...   Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

Not quite, is doubtful if any Brazilian rosewood is moving around these days, as it's been on the forbidden list for nearly 20 years. This is all about the Chinese stripping several far Eastern countries of the rosewood timber that's growing wild, in particular Vietnam. 

The good news. One of the main importers of rosewood into the UK (Timberline) can supply the correct certificates to prove that his rosewood is legal. This also includes David Dykes, who can also supply the correct certificates.

The bad news when you apply for the certificate to go with the instrument your exporting. It will cost approximately £50 , whereas in Europe it is 20 euros and in America, I believe it is 15 dollars. Even worse, it can take up to 3 months to get the necessary paperwork. When I enquired about this, I also asked if the £50 covered the whole export order of guitars or did I have to pay £50 for a certificate for each guitar. I'm still waiting for an answer on this. .

ToneControl

there's been other threads on this
I thought the ban was on planks of wood, and that non-BRZ guitars  were fine with documentation

Rabs

guitars4you said:

Rabs said:

Lets put it this way...  If you try and carry something abroad that they don't like and you don't have any paperwork they can actually confiscate if from you...... 

Anyone want to take that chance?

but commercially this is bad news - subject to what the final policy is regarding Brexit, will determine if any of us can buy/sell or gig that guitar in the EU without appropriate paperwork - with the current situation of no customs/boundaries within the EU we are still okay to buy/sell, especially via shipping agents - not sure about clearing Custom's at an airport

Not sure how builders like @Feline will  find it getting cities paperwork for any guitars they sell - so maybe any comments welcome 

Im going to have to find out about all this too since I am trying to sell guitars.....  As said its only ones that are made from 2017 so im assuming (never good to do) that if your guitar has a made in date and its before 2017 then it should be ok...

Im also assuming that the wood suppliers are now going to have to supply paper work with every sale from now on, and then that gets passed on to the customer???? 

What a huge pain in the arse!!!!!!!

What happens if you have wood you bought before 2017 but you made the guitar after?

Gassage

Bridgehouse said:

Gassage said:

OK, put simply, if I take my preCBS strats abroad, what do I have to do?

Does it have a BRW board? If it does then nothing different to now - you need a CITES certificate and a butt plug to stop customs both here and abroad from giving you a jolly good one, taking your Strat off you and burning it cos you're a bad bad environment hating monster.

Mine are 1960 and 64. THought it only applied to 50 years or younger

Rabs

GSPBASSES said:

Rabs said:

The sad thing is it seems they have lumped all the Rosewood species together in order to help the customs people so they don't have to identify the species...    Where as this probably is all about Brazilian Rosewood...

And sorry.. I didn't notice the previous discussions...   Still its a pretty important subject so I guess if other people missed it then the more who know about this the better..

Not quite, is doubtful if any Brazilian rosewood is moving around these days, as it's been on the forbidden list for nearly 20 years. This is all about the Chinese stripping several far Eastern countries of the rosewood timber that's growing wild, in particular Vietnam. 

Cheers.....That actually makes much more sense...  I don't know as much about this as I should....