Veganuary WTF???

Sporky

Chalky said:

Sadly that option is not available.  Rather like those morality tests where if you don't make a choice, then both groups of innocents die.

Excellent. I hate hypothetical people; the sooner they all die out the better.

At which point my ex would go off in a huff.

Chalky

Sporky said:

Chalky said:

Sadly that option is not available.  Rather like those morality tests where if you don't make a choice, then both groups of innocents die.

Excellent. I hate hypothetical people; the sooner they all die out the better.

At which point my ex would go off in a huff.

Does that make you a hypothetical sociopath?! 

Sporky

Hypothetically, yes.

jonnyburgo

Im a veggie, for me it comes down to you either care enough to not eat meat or you don't, and if you don't then no amount of animal cruelty vids are likely to change yor mind. many of us are animal lovers but we compartmentalise the nasty stuff to a dusty shelf in the back cupboard of our mind in order to chomp on meat guilt free. 

axisus

Philly_Q said: I'm surprised nobody, as far as I know, has made a horror movie called Straw Man. 

They did. It sucked.

Geddit?? Oh never mind ......

Chalky

axisus said:

Philly_Q said: I'm surprised nobody, as far as I know, has made a horror movie called Straw Man. 

They did. It sucked.

I heard it was quite divisive - sorted the wheat from the chaff.

Corny gag I know but sometimes I a-maize myself....

WezV

jonnyburgo said:

Im a veggie, for me it comes down to you either care enough to not eat meat or you don't, and if you don't then no amount of animal cruelty vids are likely to change yor mind. many of us are animal lovers but we compartmentalise the nasty stuff to a dusty shelf in the back cupboard of our mind in order to chomp on meat guilt free. 

I think "care" may be the wrong word, kinds suggests a moral high ground.


but yeah, we all compartmentalise these things.  I really enjoy meat and I care about animal welfare.  

I also love game, I really savour the chance to cook with a wild animal whenever I can.  It's not all the time, just a special treat, but I care about the animal enough to make sure not a drop of it is wasted.  It really annoys me when people waste good meat by cooking it badly.

Kalimna

Sporky - 'The only winning move is not to play' - Joshua by any chance?

I am most certainly an omnivore with a passion for cooked (to varying degrees) meat, but I enjoy vegetables greatly. I find myself in the slightly bizarre state of finding pure veganism preferable to simple vegetarianism, the reason being that veganism is more honest. If you decide on a dietary path free of meat, then fine that's your choice, but if you do it for spurious 'moral' reasons then surely you must abstain from all products of meat production too. That includes such things as milk, eggs and any product utilising leather, though the list goes on. As a general rule, vegans do this whilst vegetarians make exceptions. 

My tuppence to the fray,

Adam

Kalimna

Also, exactly what WezV said.

Sporky

Kalimna said:

Sporky - 'The only winning move is not to play' - Joshua by any chance?

Ayup. It annoyed her even more when she realised I was quoting that in what she thought was a deep intellectual conversation.

Kalimna said:

That includes such things as milk, eggs and any product utilising leather, though the list goes on. As a general rule, vegans do this whilst vegetarians make exceptions.

I think it depends a lot on why you're veggie. I wore leather shoes when I was veggie; if anyone made a comment about it I pointed out that I didn't eat my shoes. That said I do appreciate your position - it's just as valid.

Kalimna

I think thats the point i was making - if you become vegetarian for moral reasons then you should also shun (at least) the other products i mentioned as they are by products of the meat industry whether or not you eat them - you're still supporting the farming of animals, and i suspect (though have no evidence for) that welfare is less important to a leather or milk producer than it is a meat producer.

This is really quitr an awkward discussion to have on a forum and not come across as judgmental.

However, my final argument consists of one word in defence of carnivory - bacon.

That is all.

Adam

(Glad i got the correct quote though )

fftc

Vegetarianism and veganism aren't just about animal welfare though. The most important reasons to be either in my opinion are environmental and political. These are good reasons to reduce your meat consumption even if you don't want to be vegetarian or vegan. And if you do wish to eat meat then you can try and make sure that the meat you buy is from ethical sources. Free range, organic, local with good welfare standards are things to look for. If you have one nice meat meal a week rather than 5 made with factory farmed garbage that would probably be an improvement for everyone.

grungebob

Im not sure if the scientific findings have changed since I did my degree but  when looking at the amino acids absolutely key to healthy human develop in children only a fraction of them could be obtained from non meat sources.

we are from an evolutionary standpoint  now more suited to a meat diet than a vegetarian surely?

Kalimna

Fftc - completely agree. We have meat most nights, but id like to think none of falls under the heading of factory garbage. We cook all our own food (apart from the odd pizza ), and do our best to use everything and i always try and buy 'ethical' produce. Partly because i think it tastes better.
As a rule, i think general attitude to animal welfare is improving too - remember the backlash to intensively reared chickens and continenral-style rearing of veal. And i also suspect that red meat is in a 'better' position than poultry in this respect.

Perhaps tonight i'll do a chickpea curry for a change.

Cheers,
Adam

fretmeister

grungebob said:

Im not sure if the scientific findings have changed since I did my degree but  when looking at the amino acids absolutely key to healthy human develop in children only a fraction of them could be obtained from non meat sources.

we are from an evolutionary standpoint  now more suited to a meat diet than a vegetarian surely?

I think that's right.

The approved food recommendations for kids (well - at about 10 years ago when my youngest was born) - included using things like full fat milk as the rapidly developing infant will require it.

Grunfeld

grungebob said:

Im not sure if the scientific findings have changed since I did my degree but  when looking at the amino acids absolutely key to healthy human develop in children only a fraction of them could be obtained from non meat sources.

we are from an evolutionary standpoint  now more suited to a meat diet than a vegetarian surely?

Genuine question (because I have no academic background in nutrition), how is it that completely vegetarian cultures manage to have healthy kids?
My only experience is non-scientific:  I've been fully veg*n since about age 18 but both my kids grew up completely vegetarian, one till he was 18 now 24; the other is 21 and still vegetarian.  They're both healthy humans. 
So, genuinely, how does this square with what you studied when you did your degree?

I don't know if this might be the case but it comes to mind:  not all of this information is uncontroversial.  Best example I can think of at the moment is the way the consensus of scientific thinking is changing with regard to the role of sugars as being the prime driver of the obesity and type II diabetes epidemics.  I.e. sugars and starchy foods now appear to be massively implicated.

octatonic

This is worth a read: http://www.chiro.org/nutrition/ABSTRACTS/Your_Vegetarian_Child.shtml

The problem is when people use labels that can mean other things.
You can be a vegetarian and be unhealthy, if you eat chips all the time and no green vegetables.
Or you can be a healthy vegetarian eating a balanced diet, ensuring you get enough iron, which can be problematic.
You can be a healthy meat eater- eating a wide variety of animal and vegetable products, not over-eating, being healthy weight and eating a moderate amount of processed meats.
Or you can be be an unhealthy meat eater, eating processed crap all the time.

Also, there isn't a fixed point at which a diet becomes healthy or unhealthy- it is a range of behaviour.
One bad meal of processed food isn't going to materially change your body.
It is a pattern established over time.

jonnyburgo

grungebob said:

Im not sure if the scientific findings have changed since I did my degree but  when looking at the amino acids absolutely key to healthy human develop in children only a fraction of them could be obtained from non meat sources.

we are from an evolutionary standpoint  now more suited to a meat diet than a vegetarian surely?

Our kids have been veggie from birth, now 9 and11 yo both healthy robust kids and have never visited the GP apart from the checks when they were babies. It is a matter of making sure they get what they need and not falling back on convenience foods. Whether they want to stay veggie Is up to them though.

octatonic

jonnyburgo said:

grungebob said:

Im not sure if the scientific findings have changed since I did my degree but  when looking at the amino acids absolutely key to healthy human develop in children only a fraction of them could be obtained from non meat sources.

we are from an evolutionary standpoint  now more suited to a meat diet than a vegetarian surely?

Our kids have been veggie from birth, now 9 and11 yo both healthy robust kids and have never visited the GP apart from the checks when they were babies. It is a matter of making sure they get what they need and not falling back on convenience foods. Whether they want to stay veggie Is up to them though.

Out of curiosity how tall are they compared to their peers?

Sporky

Grunfeld said:

Genuine question (because I have no academic background in nutrition), how is it that completely vegetarian cultures manage to have healthy kids?

I asked Lady BMcH, who has a biochemistry masters degree (I am aware that this is verging on an argument from authority).

She said that you don't need any meat at all to get all the amino acids required. It is slightly trickier (but certainly not impossible) without dairy. The hardest bits are the vitamins and trace minerals, but it is entirely possible to be very healthy as a vegetarian or vegan.