Obama, a great man

Cirrus

ICBM said:

Cirrus said:

That the middle east is in turmoil is terrible, and there's plenty of blame to go around. However I don't think it's fair to put too much of the burden on Obama's shoulders, because the factors that lead to today's problems are centuries in the making. I'm not sure what Obama could have done differently that would have resulted in appreciable less suffering.

Not interfered in Libya.
Not supported regime change in Egypt - twice, when their imposed democracy didn't give the result they wanted the first time.
Not encouraged the rebellion in Syria.
Withdrawn more completely and quickly from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Put pressure on Saudi Arabia to stop indiscriminate bombing in Yemen.
Put pressure on Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank.

And that's totally your right to hold that opinion, I even agree with it, but I think my point was more of a generality about how we perceive, judge and blame world leaders - I could easily imagine a world where you were the president (I mean, I'd vote for you...) and you took these lines...


...and everything just happened to go tits up.

- Gaddafi stayed in power and was as brutal as Assad was in dealing with the popular uprising.

- Egyptian public discontent bubbled for another two years before exploding in popular anger, resulting in just as much chaos as happened in reality.

- Same in Syria, except more refugees were killed before they could flee in a quicker, more brutal and less drawn out conflict.

- Iraq and Afghanistan destabilised faster and more chaotically than they actually have, and as a result Isis took a much stronger grip on the middle east region while islamist militant forces took back control of Afghanistan and the Pakistan border region.

- Saudi's decrease oil production, knock on effects cause worse economic performance around the fragile recovery of the early 2010's. Domestic Unemployment rises.

- Without US support, Israel's position becomes more tenuous. Attacks on Israeli settlers increase, government responds by further annexing Palestinian land and forced relocations, which sparks a new outright conflict.

As a world leader, you are blamed for this, everyone hates you and people on forums discuss what at IDIOT you were for not interfering more in libya, supporting regime change at the critical moment in Egypt, Ignoring the plight of Syrians, letting Iraq and Afghanistan go to the dogs, provoking Saudi Arabia and not supporting Israel.

My point is, even with the benefit of hindsight, you just don't know what would have happened. And most of the problems you'd be blamed for aren't really your fault, it's just that humans are *fucked up* and do terrible things to each other all the time. Then we look for who to blame.

Just let me point out in closing that I agree with all of your points, for example when the US finally didn't veto the UN resolution against settlement building last month I was very surprised and pleased. But my point is that as a world leader, you're basically herding feral cats.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

Hindsight is a wonderful thing .. ;-)

Hindsight? Many of us spoke against all those mistakes at the time - I'm quite sure I'm on record here at least, and I'm certainly not alone.

Is your name Obama .. :-)

I don't think he had a choice - he wasn't a dictator. He'd have had advisers and the Senate breathing down his neck.

And I wasn't being serious.

Motorhate

If you’re asserting that Farage was a household name or even remotely a figure that the population of the US could identify (let alone influence an election in Trump’s favour) on the basis that he was interviewed on the odd occasion on US TV then that’s pretty laughable mate. Payout denied I’m afraid. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 sheets.

Chalky

Heartfeltdawn said:

And yes the caps were intentional. Who doesn't like puppies? 

Love 'em.

But couldn't eat a whole one...

Heartfeltdawn

Motorhate said:

If you’re asserting that Farage was a household name or even remotely a figure that the population of the US could identify (let alone influence an election in Trump’s favour) on the basis that he was interviewed on the odd occasion on US TV then that’s pretty laughable mate. Payout denied I’m afraid. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 sheets.

 

No I am not asserting that he was a household name to rival that of, say, John Cena or Miley Cyrus, and at no point did I attempt to assert that. Instead I focused purely on your words:

"I’d wager nobody in the USA had ever heard of him before Trump brought him over so he’s hardly in a position to influence the US electorate."

I emphasise the 'nobody' element. Clearly that is erroneous. 

In keeping with everything else you've written in this thread, there is nothing of substance so I shall cease this engagement now. 

Motorhate

Nothing of substance? You used 3 random video appearances to assert that Farage was known in the USA. Hardly convincing and I still assert that hardly anybody had heard of him up to that point (which is what I meant originally) and even today, after the US election, very few people on the streets of the USA could tell you who he is.
But that's beside the point. My original post was pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama complaining of interference in an election by a third party whilst at the same time being instrumental in some brutal uprisings and regime changes by brutal means.
Never mind though eh? You pointed out a mistake on the internet. Have the rest of the week off darling.

Chalky

@Dalefty - Is that you?

Emp_Fab

TLDR: Obama is good, Trump is bad, some folk on here can't see past their own political biases to acknowledge that.

Heartfeltdawn

Motorhate said:

Nothing of substance? You used 3 random video appearances to assert that Farage was known in the USA. Hardly convincing and I still assert that hardly anybody had heard of him up to that point (which is what I meant originally) and even today, after the US election, very few people on the streets of the USA could tell you who he is.
But that's beside the point. My original post was pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama complaining of interference in an election by a third party whilst at the same time being instrumental in some brutal uprisings and regime changes by brutal means.
Never mind though eh? You pointed out a mistake on the internet. Have the rest of the week off darling.

If nobody had known of him as you stated, then he wouldn't have been on American television over the six year period. If nobody had heard of him, then he wouldn't have spoken at the Heritage Foundation in both 2015 and 2016. The Farage influence on American politics is not some wispy cloud. No, I completely agree that the average man in the American street wouldn't recognise him. But many folk within politics would and did and listened to what he said and watched how he and UKIP have operated. 

It's also more than one mistake. Never become a football referee: constantly moving goalposts only leads to bizarre scorelines, darling. 

Motorhate

Heartfeltdawn said:

If nobody had known of him as you stated, then he wouldn't have been on American television over the six year period. If nobody had heard of him, then he wouldn't have spoken at the Heritage Foundation in both 2015 and 2016. The Farage influence on American politics is not some wispy cloud. No, I completely agree that the average man in the American street wouldn't recognise him. But many folk within politics would and did and listened to what he said and watched how he and UKIP have operated. 

It's also more than one mistake. Never become a football referee: constantly moving goalposts only leads to bizarre scorelines, darling. 

I think we're going round in circles here. I personally don't think he had an impact on the way the American public voted but the point is rather moot as Trump got into power by largely playing on the fears of the American public and promising to reverse the many unpopular policies that Obama introduced (Obamacare being one of them) and the fact that Hilary Clinton was a terrible candidate. Either way, I think Trump is a dick who will renege on his promises and end up being impeached for some act of gross misconduct.

A football referee? Have you watched football lately? They make howlers all the time, I'd fit right in.

Evilmags

Heartfeltdawn said:

Motorhate said:

Nothing of substance? You used 3 random video appearances to assert that Farage was known in the USA. Hardly convincing and I still assert that hardly anybody had heard of him up to that point (which is what I meant originally) and even today, after the US election, very few people on the streets of the USA could tell you who he is.
But that's beside the point. My original post was pointing out the hypocrisy of Obama complaining of interference in an election by a third party whilst at the same time being instrumental in some brutal uprisings and regime changes by brutal means.
Never mind though eh? You pointed out a mistake on the internet. Have the rest of the week off darling.

If nobody had known of him as you stated, then he wouldn't have been on American television over the six year period. If nobody had heard of him, then he wouldn't have spoken at the Heritage Foundation in both 2015 and 2016. The Farage influence on American politics is not some wispy cloud. No, I completely agree that the average man in the American street wouldn't recognise him. But many folk within politics would and did and listened to what he said and watched how he and UKIP have operated. 

It's also more than one mistake. Never become a football referee: constantly moving goalposts only leads to bizarre scorelines, darling. 

Nigel Farage, as you point out, put a lot of work into developing relationships with Trump and US right wing media (Brietbart). He knows all of the key people who put Trump where he is. 

Obama could have ended Hilary Clinton in his first term by not appointing her to his administration. He would not take the risk, so the Clintons continued to dominate the democrats. 

So now its Trump´s turn. 

Snap

The thing to lay at the feet of 8 years of Obama is some shocking foreign policy moves.

Can't see Trump lasting long. If he lasts longer than a year, I think someone will assassinate him. His tenure is going to be bizarre I think. Its all very well tearing up the rulebook, but this twat can't even read.

scrumhalf

I've mentioned his colossal mistake in basically paying Iran to continue to develop nuclear arms and threaten its neighbours in another thread.

What I dislike intensley is his media coaching. He rarely spoke a sentence in one go without pause.
Every few words
there was a pause
so that the telly and radio
could pick
at sound bites.

Heartfeltdawn

Evilmags said:

Nigel Farage, as you point out, put a lot of work into developing relationships with Trump and US right wing media (Brietbart). He knows all of the key people who put Trump where he is. 

Obama could have ended Hilary Clinton in his first term by not appointing her to his administration. He would not take the risk, so the Clintons continued to dominate the democrats. 

So now its Trump´s turn. 

That's it exactly. Farage's efforts over the years didn't go unnoticed in America. A small party without huge funds with pretty much one man as the figurehead managed to sustain a series of attacks on the EU and played a huge part in the Brexit result. No matter what Nigel came out with, right up to his near-gibberish on Nigerians with AIDS during the televised debates last election, nothing really stuck to him and took away from his principal message, that of being anti-EU. A man who can do that without actually getting elected as an MP is a curious one but one to learn from. 

And Steven Bannon of Breitbart saw that. Farage's own book, The Purple Revolution, talked about the September 2014 meeting with Republicans and Tea Party officials in September 2014. 

Bloomberg ran an excellent article in October 2015 where it mentioned the annual Conservative Political Action Conference that took place in 2015. It mentions how Bannon had two guests with him. One was a duck hunter turned television star; the other was Farage. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2015-steve-bannon/

Relationship building like that is how Farage influenced the US election. Getting involved with the Heritage Foundation saw his influence grow. His relationship with Breitbart grew and articles under his name started appearing online in mid-2015. Some of the Breitbart rivals saw this. I invite you to read a hilarious article by Louise Mensch for instance: 

http://heatst.com/world/steven-bannon-is-the-link-between-donald-trump-and-nigel-farage/

The chronology of the Bannon-UKIP involvement is all there alongside the absurd Mensch barbs which now look even more hollow since Trump won. 

So Farage didn't influence the election in a 'Look, you should vote for The Donald' way. Not at all. He influenced it in showing Bannon how you could fight an election. Bannon took that and ran with it with Trump. Nigel Farage is unquestionably for me the most influential British politician since the Reverend Blair (with obviously no judgement on whether that is a positive or negative influence), all the more remarkable considering his General Election failures and the failure of his party to build on the increase in coverage. 

Motorhate said:

I think we're going round in circles here. I personally don't think he had an impact on the way the American public voted but the point is rather moot as Trump got into power by largely playing on the fears of the American public and promising to reverse the many unpopular policies that Obama introduced (Obamacare being one of them) and the fact that Hilary Clinton was a terrible candidate. Either way, I think Trump is a dick who will renege on his promises and end up being impeached for some act of gross misconduct.

A football referee? Have you watched football lately? They make howlers all the time, I'd fit right in.

Not so much circles as us having a different idea of influence. I agree that on the street influence appealing to the average American baseball fan, Farage is very small. It's the behind the scenes influence that I'm on about. As wagers are in, I would lay down $50 that most Americans couldn't recognise Steve Bannon in the street but there'd be no doubting his influence on proceedings in America. 

Chalky

Great to see you back on top form @Heartfeltdawn.

Heartfeltdawn

@Chalky Thanks. On the whole 'Obama interfered in our election' aspect, I've never agreed with it. All sorts of claims were going around at the time as to the sort of trade deal we could make with the Americans. It was only right that the head American actually gave his thoughts on it. I have no problem with Obama speaking just as I have no problem with Farage speaking in America. The issue is Farage damning Obama and then doing exactly what he was complaining about. 

I'm not a party man when it come to politics. I'm sure that some eejits would look at me saying Farage is influential and take that as me endorsing his policies and standpoints. Not at all. Farage's greatest weakness over here, not knowing when to stop when it comes to some of his more ludicrous comments, actually became a strength for Trump. Farage showed Bannon what could be achieved on a pretty shoestring budget, and Bannon took that to the next level with a far greater budget and media framework around him. 

All of this makes Nigel Farage the Velvet Underground of British politics: pretty unsuccessful in terms of sales but look at the motherfucking influence afterwards!  

Chalky

@Heartfeltdawn said "I'm sure that some eejits would look at me saying Farage is influential and take that as me endorsing his policies and standpoints."

My Dad used to complain that he couldn't explain or explore something without eejits assuming that meant he supported or condoned it.  If you mention Trump without villifying him, many folks on here think you're defending him.  Perhaps we need an acronym or emoticon that means "Eejits, I'm going to talk about something now that I neither support nor condone!"

Heartfeltdawn

That would be helpful. In the case of Trump, it did surprise me how quickly some people wrote him off within the media, on this forum, and within my friendship groups. Remember the reaction here with the first primary result? Poor poor Marco... 

Trump actually completed my hat trick of successful wagers which netted me some coins (predicting result of 2015 General Election, referendum, and US election) which was a rather bittersweet financial bonus. All too often political analysis is reduced to Love or Hate on the knuckles, not surprising when the central ground has been so squashed in the last few years. Nuance has been a major casualty. I still wish the referendum had had that third option: Stay in the EU but demand systematic reform of the entire system. 

What we see with Farage, Trump, Corbyn, and Marine Le Pen are figures on the outskirts who don't rely on traditional media to get the message across. That online contact with the electorate is where all four have picked up the baton. 

axisus

Heartfeltdawn said:

What we see with Farage, Trump, Corbyn, and Marine Le Pen are figures on the outskirts who don't rely on traditional media to get the message across. That online contact with the electorate is where all four have picked up the baton. 

Personally I think that it shows that leadership (on a worldwide scale) have gotten too indulgent with their own agendas and lost touch with 'the people'. The people are opting to take back some control by whatever method is necessary.

Chalky

axisus said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

What we see with Farage, Trump, Corbyn, and Marine Le Pen are figures on the outskirts who don't rely on traditional media to get the message across. That online contact with the electorate is where all four have picked up the baton. 

Personally I think that it shows that leadership (on a worldwide scale) have gotten too indulgent with their own agendas and lost touch with 'the people'. The people are opting to take back some control by whatever method is necessary.

Any young politico joining a political party now is soon going to be pissed off by the elders of the party and what is now their utterly useless, worthless and anachronistic 'dinosaur' experience.  The old methods of organisation, communication and message filtering and management is dying fast if not already dead.