Thought process when soloing?

Roland

I've stayed out of this discussion so far because I don't find any of the theoretical stuff particularly useful when soloing. Like many others I've studied the rules for chord inversions, scales and arpeggios, and even practice them occasionally.

When it comes to actually playing, or working out a pre-planned solo, I find the theory gets in the way. I don't have time or mental capacity to think about it. Instead I'm looking for melody, or putting in a flurry of notes between harmonic resolution points. Neil Sedaka used to talk about 'drop dead' notes. He said that if you hit the right note in the right place then you could drop dead immediately afterwards and no one would notice because the tune had carried them away. The blues is very like that: lots of rhythmic and melodic ways to build tension, and a few key points where you have to resolve, and a limited number of notes which you can resolve to.

Even in well known solos, and I'll cite Alright Now as an example, there are notes or phrases you have to hit and space for fills. Listen to Neal Schon do it.

So when soloing I normally know how I'm going to start the first bar. I know the key phrases or notes I need to place. The rest is listening to my tone, paying attention to the rest of the band, responding to any audience reaction, and keeping my conscious brain from interfering in what I'm playing.

Niallseroreilly

I think the conclusion im coming to is that it highly beneficial to practice scales, arpeggios etc and this practice will enrich instinctive playing.

octatonic

ElectroDan said:

Thanks for answering.
I've been playing a long time and have developed enough technique/dexterity to play pretty much anything I want to. 

I've taught students who say this sort of thing and whilst I'm not doubting you try playing this now:



Tempo is 200bpm, but give it a go at 130bpm and see.
I worked this up to over 200 a few years ago, it took a few weeks of consistent work about 2-3 hours a day.
This is just the head.
Trying to solo through it at that tempo is no joke.
Often just the key of Ab is enough to screw over many a rock guitarist.

What is typical is that people don't attempt much outside their comfort zone.
Now maybe you are happy where you are at, or maybe not- I can't say- but the way to rapidly progress is to pretty much stop playing the stuff you can already play comfortably and consistently work on stuff 
Give it a go and see what you reckon.

ElectroDan said:
I will have to have a play around with what you've suggested. I don't think the problem is that people don't want to learn this stuff. It's that there is such a lot to learn that it gets overwhelming trying to find what bits you can apply.

Yes, agree 100% here- many people want to do it but lack a system to get into it.
It is hard and it can take years and years even with a good approach.
It takes a lot longer without one.

This is why players really need a mentor- not many people can crack it without one.

Niallseroreilly

@octatonic do you recommend learning from tab or going by ear? Or i suppose a mix of both?

octatonic

Niallseroreilly said:

@octatonic do you recommend learning from tab or going by ear? Or i suppose a mix of both?

Do you think it is better to read, write or think or talk?
Both, I guess- but standard notation and ear training should be written into your practice, I think.

I'm not being snarky here- just highlighting that the goal is to be able to communicate musically- ignoring one area in favour of another means you won't be well rounded.
That might not matter to you- it does to me.

You can learn to speak English really well and never need to be able to read or write it right up until the point where it is necessary and then you are trouble.

So- whatever you can do to learn music in its entirety is a good thing.
I don't like recommending tab, because it makes guitarists lazy.
The only reason the above chart has TAB at all is I was trying to work out placement on the guitar (which is what TAB is great for).
But being able to read dots is more important- ideally in bass clef as well as treble.

So I would prioritise playing and ear training over reading and reading dots over tab- and when I teach this is how I proceed.

A lot of folk say they play by ear and yet they don't have very good ears either.
Really what they are saying is 'I can't read music'- which is no great crime if you have an amazing ear.
More often they are just lazy- they can't read, they can't hear and they can't play very well either.

It does down to what sort of musician do you want to be.

FreddieVanHalen

@octatonic @viz and everyone who's contributed, I've been lurking on this thread and found it very useful.

I've just started working through a practice regime now which is more focussed around arpeggios, chord tones and bashing my head against the wall with arps and the encapsulation approach.

Sometimes it feels a bit mechanical and that I'm not really getting anywhere with it in terms of it soaking into my playing - is this just a case of accepting that it takes a lot of time and practice before it starts to make sense and become integrated into my improvs?

If we're talking Karate Kid, is this like painting the fence?

octatonic

FreddieVanHalen said:

@octatonic @viz and everyone who's contributed, I've been lurking on this thread and found it very useful.

I've just started working through a practice regime now which is more focussed around arpeggios, chord tones and bashing my head against the wall with arps and the encapsulation approach.

Sometimes it feels a bit mechanical and that I'm not really getting anywhere with it in terms of it soaking into my playing - is this just a case of accepting that it takes a lot of time and practice before it starts to make sense and become integrated into my improvs?

If we're talking Karate Kid, is this like painting the fence?

In the Karate Kid Daniel has to do unrelated stuff in order to prepare his body to do the thing that he eventually incorporates into his martial arts.
So, no not really- because you are practicing things that are in the same discipline as the thing you are trying to do and are essentially the same things that you will be employing.

But it is a new approach for you and it is hard- so give yourself a break.
It will be challenging.

Try to chunk it- don't take on too much new stuff at once.
I suggest working on no more than two new things a week- so assuming you are just starting this then try to get two arpeggios under the fingers.
Then try to incorporate them into your soloing.

I'd concentrate on the dominant arpeggios to begin with- because they are the 'money shot' when it comes to tension and release in the turnaround.

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

Often, when people try to do this themselves, they rush.
Speed is a byproduct of accuracy- when you are practicing these lines for the first few times play them SLOOOOOOWLY.
Like quarter notes at 60bpm slow.
There is plenty of time to speed up later.

People know I am studying drums right now, don't they? 
When I'm playing new techniques I go super slow, one hit per second the first few times, until I have the movements in my head.
It is slow and deliberate work.

ElectroDan

@Octatonic  just had a listen to Donna Lee as you may not be surprised to hear my reading isn't great. I'll give it a shot later. Although I was referring to anything I'd want/need to play in my covers bands as opposed to any piece I'm given.

professorben

digitalscream said:

cruxiform said:

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

I wing it...and hope for the best.

Indeed. My main thought process during solos is less of a "process" and more "a single word, repeated over and over until the singer comes back in".

"Shitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshit....phew"

This, but with occasional glances to see if the barmaid is looking at me.......but not for too long, if I don't maintain eye contact with the frets, they move.

FreddieVanHalen

octatonic said:

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

I've spent about five minutes trying to work this out but still not fully sure  

The first four notes sweeping from the bass strings look like the E7 arpeggio, the F on the 6th fret b string is a passing note, then the last four notes E, G#, B, A I'd guess would from the A chord. But the B on the high E string would make more sense at the fifth in E rather than the second in A?

I had to write those two scales out as well, I don't know them off the top of my head. Work to do!

Barney

FreddieVanHalen said:

octatonic said:

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

I've spent about five minutes trying to work this out but still not fully sure  

The first four notes sweeping from the bass strings look like the E7 arpeggio, the F on the 6th fret b string is a passing note, then the last four notes E, G#, B, A I'd guess would from the A chord. But the B on the high E string would make more sense at the fifth in E rather than the second in A?

I had to write those two scales out as well, I don't know them off the top of my head. Work to do!

This is all really E7 the V chord and a resolution to A maj  I chord with the last note...
So basically all E7 with a passing note apart from the last note that is a resolution to A

FreddieVanHalen

Doh! Lots to learn, at least it makes sense now :-)

Barney

FreddieVanHalen said:

Doh! Lots to learn, at least it makes sense now :-)

To look at another way to fit the same 2 chords try Bmin pentatonic over E7 .....then Db minor pentatonic over Amaj chord...

octatonic

FreddieVanHalen said:

octatonic said:

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

I've spent about five minutes trying to work this out but still not fully sure  

The first four notes sweeping from the bass strings look like the E7 arpeggio, the F on the 6th fret b string is a passing note, then the last four notes E, G#, B, A I'd guess would from the A chord. But the B on the high E string would make more sense at the fifth in E rather than the second in A?

I had to write those two scales out as well, I don't know them off the top of my head. Work to do!

Close but think about the chord progression- it is even more simple than that.

Notes in order:

E G# B D F E G# B A

Chord progression:

E7               A
You could also express/extend that progression to be
E7alt           Amaj7 (or even maj9)

Note analysis:

E: Root of E7
G#: 3rd of E7
B: 5th of E7
D; b7 of E7
F: passing note- actually the b9 of E7b9
E: Root of E7 / 5th of A- provides a semitone descend to get into the A chord territory. From here on notes are relative to the A chord, because that is the chord of the progression.
G#: Major7th of A
B: major 9th of A
A: nice tonic ending.

octatonic

Also try playing the above line without the encapsulation at the end- holding the last E to then land on the A on the 1.
Sucks, doesn't it?
This is where encapsulation really works well- situations where you want to outline a chord progression but you don't want to sound too much like you are outlining a chord progression.
As a general rule it helps to use the semitone below, tone above when going to major 7th chords and tone below and semitone above on dominant 7 (and sometimes minor 7) chords.

If it isn't obvious why then ask and I can explain it.

Lebarque

Bash out a pentatonic and hope for the best!

Barney

Lebarque said:

Bash out a pentatonic and hope for the best!

Make that F# minor and it will work fine ..

FreddieVanHalen

octatonic said:

Also try playing the above line without the encapsulation at the end- holding the last E to then land on the A on the 1.
Sucks, doesn't it?
This is where encapsulation really works well- situations where you want to outline a chord progression but you don't want to sound too much like you are outlining a chord progression.
As a general rule it helps to use the semitone below, tone above when going to major 7th chords and tone below and semitone above on dominant 7 (and sometimes minor 7) chords.

If it isn't obvious why then ask and I can explain it.

Thanks @octatonic tried with and without the encapsulation and it is surprising the difference that it makes.

I think the semitone below vs. tone below thing is to hit the appropriate 7th isn't it, i.e. semitone below for maj7 and tone below for b7?

@lebarque yeah that's my current approach but i've gotten stuck in a rut with it.

As I've only just started with this it feels tough. How do improvisers grok this? Scale maps? Arpeggios? Do they visualise it or hear it?

It's probably all of the above after a shed load of practice...which I don't mind. @octatonic is right in that I've been trying to bite off too much and go too quickly given the amount of practice time I have. A couple of drills a week is plenty for me...

viz

Barney said:

FreddieVanHalen said:

octatonic said:

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

I've spent about five minutes trying to work this out but still not fully sure  

The first four notes sweeping from the bass strings look like the E7 arpeggio, the F on the 6th fret b string is a passing note, then the last four notes E, G#, B, A I'd guess would from the A chord. But the B on the high E string would make more sense at the fifth in E rather than the second in A?

I had to write those two scales out as well, I don't know them off the top of my head. Work to do!

This is all really E7 the V chord and a resolution to A maj  I chord with the last note...
So basically all E7 with a passing note apart from the last note that is a resolution to A

Yes, in a perfect cadence I see the encapsulation as part of the dominant (partly because it normally occurs at the end of the previous bar) - the standard one being the 3 and 5 of the dominant honing in on the tonic in a pincer movement; the tone-under / semitone-over one being the superlocrian version. But that's just the way I see it, you can use it as the beginning of the tonic chord if you wish, as a 7 and 9. 

In Octa's example, if you imagine the notes as triplets, the encapsulation (the 7th and 8th notes of the sequence) lands on the tonic bar; if you think of them as semiquavers, you're still in the dominant bar. 

Yes, these rules can seem mechanical to the player, especially if overused, but they probably sound quite natural to the listener - it probably just sounds like part of the tune! (which it is). 

octatonic

viz said:

Barney said:

FreddieVanHalen said:

octatonic said:

Try to get a V -> I line down.
Something like this would be good:

-------------------4-7-5-------------
--------------6-5--------------------
-------- 4-7--------------------------
------6-------------------------------
---7----------------------------------
---------------------------------------

I use this line with students for a blues in A.
It is an E7 -> A line that uses an E7 arpeggio and some other notes.
If this was a lesson I'd give you 3 coloured highlighters and get you to tell me which bits are the notes of E7, which notes are part of A and which notes are passing notes.
Feel free to do this in your reply  and I will comment.

I've spent about five minutes trying to work this out but still not fully sure  

The first four notes sweeping from the bass strings look like the E7 arpeggio, the F on the 6th fret b string is a passing note, then the last four notes E, G#, B, A I'd guess would from the A chord. But the B on the high E string would make more sense at the fifth in E rather than the second in A?

I had to write those two scales out as well, I don't know them off the top of my head. Work to do!

This is all really E7 the V chord and a resolution to A maj  I chord with the last note...
So basically all E7 with a passing note apart from the last note that is a resolution to A

Yes, in a perfect cadence I see the encapsulation as part of the dominant (partly because it normally occurs at the end of the previous bar) - the standard one being the 3 and 5 of the dominant honing in on the tonic in a pincer movement; the tone-under / semitone-over one being the superlocrian version. But that's just the way I see it, you can use it as the beginning of the tonic chord if you wish, as a 7 and 9. 

In Octa's example, if you imagine the notes as triplets, the encapsulation (the 7th and 8th notes of the sequence) lands on the tonic bar; if you think of them as semiquavers, you're still in the dominant bar. 

Yes, these rules can seem mechanical to the player, especially if overused, but they probably sound quite natural to the listener - it probably just sounds like part of the tune! (which it is). 

Yup, but also if you are playing straight 8ths or 16ths there is no harm in shifting focus to the next chord preemptively- Robben Ford does that quite often.

The rest of the band is on the V chord and Robben has already moved on, or indeed sometimes lagging behind.
It creates a really nice tension/resolution event when done well and sounds like you don't know what the fuck you are doing when done less brilliantly.

I know you probably already know this- I'm really stating it for the benefit of others.