Martin McGuinness RIP

robgilmo

Fretwired said:

marantz1300 said:

BTW
 bloody sunday and the hunger strikes severly escalated the troubles.
 Read the IRA by Tim Pat Cougan for a in depth knolage of the IRA from 1916 to the 90's

There was a BBC documentary on BBC about the troubles - members of the IRA were interviewed and prior to Bloody Sunday they were about to throw the towel in and call it a day. The membership had slumped, there was no cash and little support in the streets for armed struggle. On the evening of Bloody Sunday the IRA was inundated with requests to join and cash and guns started flowing from the USA soon after. Putting the paras on the streets was a bad move.

Makes you wonder if there is an underlying agenda there, there usually is with war.

robgilmo

lonestar said:

digitalscream said:

@marantz1300 - that link doesn't work, but presuming the content from the URL...I'm not saying the British Empire was blameless (I'm fully aware of the sordid history of the Empire). However, they were an invading force, not terrorists.

The word "terrorist", in relation to the IRA, was one bestowed upon them by the British. It seems that once a government decides to invade that is okay... should the opposing forces fight back they are then branded terrorists. 

It would seem that in our modern times the term ''terrorist'' can be applied to anyone who disagrees.

robgilmo

digitalscream said:

Snap said:

I have mixed views on the IRA. They were/are a terrorist organisation that carried out some terrible murders and brutal crimes, but they arose from a position of persecution.

Show me a terrorist who didn't use that as their excuse.

You mean show you an opposing force fighting back against an occupation who didn't use that as an excuse? I don't think I can.

GoldenEraGuitars

I'd also add that the most recent turn of events that sparked "the troubles" was the equal rights marches that the Catholics had started to fight back against Protestant oppression. This was met with violence from the RUC and loyalist forces such as the UVF. The Catholics were attacked, burned out of their homes and murdered.

The British army were brought in to maintain order, which worked for a while. But it didn't take long for the whole thing to turn sour. Had the Uk government treated Northern Ireland with some decency and protected each citizen as an equal maybe we'd be in a different place right now.

Remember, when the Catholics started to march for equal rights and peace, there was virtually no Army presence. They weren't being violent. It was actually the UVF who started bombing before the IRA.

robgilmo

I remember the leaked list of RUC members who were active members of the UVF, must have been the late 80's if I remember correctly, long time ago now, but basically ''terrorists'' on Uk government payrolls.
That is the mess that was/is NIreland.

ICBM

lonestar said:

The word "terrorist", in relation to the IRA, was one bestowed upon them by the British. It seems that once a government decides to invade that is okay... should the opposing forces fight back they are then branded terrorists. 

Sort of… but the IRA were unquestionably terrorists because they attacked civilian targets both in Northern Ireland and in the UK, with the aim of spreading terror.

You may say they were fighting oppression or have some sympathy with their motives, but they were still terrorists. If they'd stuck to military targets only it might have been arguable that they weren't.

Whether the other side started it, was as bad or worse, or whether the British forces - overt and secret - also colluded in terror is a different question. No-one has the moral high ground.

But I agree that if McGuinness hadn't originally been such a committed IRA man, he would never have had the authority to deliver peace.

GoldenEraGuitars

ICBM said:

lonestar said:

The word "terrorist", in relation to the IRA, was one bestowed upon them by the British. It seems that once a government decides to invade that is okay... should the opposing forces fight back they are then branded terrorists. 

Sort of… but the IRA were unquestionably terrorists because they attacked civilian targets both in Northern Ireland and in the UK, with the aim of spreading terror.

You may say they were fighting oppression or have some sympathy with their motives, but they were still terrorists. If they'd stuck to military targets only it might have been arguable that they weren't.

Whether the other side started it, was as bad or worse, or whether the British forces - overt and secret - also colluded in terror is a different question. No-one has the moral high ground.

But I agree that if McGuinness hadn't originally been such a committed IRA man, he would never have had the authority to deliver peace.

Absolutely. There is no moral high ground.

But you also have to remember that the RUC were full of UVF members who the British army had running their dirty deeds (civilian murder). How do I know? Because I know people involved. It's a shocking history to deal with but thankfully no one talks about it. 

Richardj

Undoubtedly the British army didn't behave at all well there and terrible things happened. But were any of them on the scale of the bombings that claimed so many innocent lives in shopping centres, high streets etc., or the kidnappings and killings of journalists or anyone who appeared to disagree with them?

If you justify and legitimise one act of terrorism you have to legitimise them all.

Clarky

I never understood why he was never tried for his crimes

ICBM

lonestar said:

Absolutely. There is no moral high ground.

But you also have to remember that the RUC were full of UVF members who the British army had running their dirty deeds (civilian murder). How do I know? Because I know people involved. It's a shocking history to deal with but thankfully no one talks about it. 

Yes, I'm aware of some of that too - thankfully less than you will be. My father was in the army and was stationed there in the 60s before the Troubles. Oddly enough (or perhaps not, given that he saw what went on) he always had quite a lot of sympathy for the Republicans, and quite a lot of contempt for certain elements in the army.

axisus

If there's Heaven and Hell he will be in the latter. Negotiate your way out of that one. 

marantz1300

axisus said:

If there's Heaven and Hell he will be in the latter. Negotiate your way out of that one. 

There's no Heaven or Hell.

The dead feel nothing,,.

only the living suffer.

Rocker

Nitefly said:

I find myself strangely unmoved.  His contribution to the peace process might have been more convincing had it started about 20 or 30 years sooner.

It did.  In 1974.  It was scuppered mainly by Loyalist and Unionist resistance.  A long while later and following a lot of deaths and injuries, David Ervine of the PUP sought to find common ground with the Republicans.  Sadly he passed away before his movement made any significant progress.  But the process had begun.  It was thanks to Mrs Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair, all the Northern Ireland political leaders, the various heads of Government in the Republic and the efforts of a number of external conciliation experts that resulted in the Peace Process.  Both sides, Nationalist and Loyalist had to learn that there would or could not be outright 'victory' for any side in the dispute.  The party leaders had to lead by passing this message down through their ranks.  Martin McGuinness excelled in this.  Likewise the Reverend Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson and David Trimble.

The fact that McGuinness has 'blood on his hands' cannot be ignored.  Many people have suffered as a result of the troubles but, somehow, the greater good of the province must come from the continuation of the Peace Process.  Re-assuring noises have come from Gerry Adams and Arlene Foster.  We can only hope that the Peace Process continues especially with the added complication of Brexit.

Time is a great healer.  Let us hope that time is found.  Somewhere.

marantz1300

From Redmond to Thatcher they all have blood on their hands.

AliGorie

Don't forget people like Norman Tebbit, Terry Dick & Thatcher called Nelson Mandela a terrorist right up until 1987,

are we awaiting our Imperial Masters triggering Empire2 ?

remember this one -

700px-List_of_countries_gained_independance_from_the_UK_Flag_version_3.svg.png

Drew_TNBD

AliGorie said:

Don't forget people like Norman Tebbit, Terry Dick & Thatcher called Nelson Mandela a terrorist right up until 1987

Well technically he was. He was the head of UmKhonto, the terrorist wing of the ANC, and he ordered the deaths of innocent people.

Even Amnesty International wouldn't take his case because of his association with violence and terrorism. It's all there: http://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/POL10/001/1965/en/

Some research here: http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

RobDavies

I find it very hard to feel any empathy for ANYONE who blows up men, women, children and animals - and shows no remorse. 

GoldenEraGuitars

RobDavies said:

I find it very hard to feel any empathy for ANYONE who blows up men, women, children and animals - and shows no remorse. 

Here's the thing... he wasn't  (afaik) directly linked to anything. He wasn't a stupid man, he had others do the work for him. But tbh I don't think he had control over very much that went on. You have to remember that the modern day IRA was guerrilla warfare at its most stereotypical. The "IRA" wasn't managed by a few select people. It was made up of dozens of smaller groups, each operating in their own area. It may be the case that he never killed anyone directly. Who knows... Don't get me wrong, I'm not in mourning for this man but there are much bigger players in the armed republican movement than McGuinness ever was. Heard of Gerry Kelly? Marian and Dolores Price?

robgilmo

RobDavies said:

I find it very hard to feel any empathy for ANYONE who blows up men, women, children and animals - and shows no remorse. 

That will be every terrorist, soldier, most political leaders (if you wish to call them leaders) even down to the people involved ion the making and selling/distribution of arms.
I very much doubt the lady who cleans the offices in the factory that makes bullets for the worlds armys shows any remorse for any of the people those bullets kill.
Personally I have no feeling what so ever for anyone involved in such practices.
Who blows up animals?

Drew_TNBD

Fuck your apologia.