the reason I won't buy a kemper etc...

CDM83 · November 2016

i say this without having tried one....

but my reluctance to get involved is that, in 10 years time, i expect the kemper/fractal/helix etc will be replaced by much newer and more advanced models.

whereas, my trusty quality valve amp will still be just that - a great amp.

maybe i'll change my mind after i try one - but wondering if many people are having similar reservations with all these modelling alternatives....?

simonk · November 2016

You'd never embrace anything to do with technology on that basis though.

FWIW I love my Kemper, and it coexists very nicely along with my amps.

John_A · November 2016

Not at all, I'm sure there will be improvements but the sound/convenience/flexibility of my Helix has made my old valve amps and pedals obsolete. Sure they still sound good, but not as good IMO, and you add in all the additional benefits like direct recording and there are plenty of reasons to go digital.

guitarfishbay · November 2016

In 10 years I'll have dented all the resale value out of whatever I buy so none of it makes any difference on that timescale

FelineGuitars · November 2016

I hear what you are saying but to be fair on Kemper they have been brilliant about having something that readily takes firmware and software updates (so far)

paul_c2 · November 2016

CDM83 said:

i say this without having tried one....

but my reluctance to get involved is that, in 10 years time, i expect the kemper/fractal/helix etc will be replaced by much newer and more advanced models.

whereas, my trusty quality valve amp will still be just that - a great amp.

maybe i'll change my mind after i try one - but wondering if many people are having similar reservations with all these modelling alternatives....?

Yes there will be something newer. Yes, it will (probably) be much cheaper too. But.....more advanced...not sure, I think the era we are now in is that modelling has finally reached the point where it doesn't need to be a compromise on a valve amp, indeed the valve amp is now the compromise and the Kemper the more "musically" capable option.

Of course, personally for me I can afford neither a valve amp nor a Kemper. But I now dream of owning a Kemper, not a valve amp. Maybe in 5-10 years time, once the price has come right down.....

carlos · November 2016

Yeah man, that's why I don't have a mobile phone. I just carry coins with me all the time, and if I need to make a call while at home I'll walk to the post office. Even if all the cell towers crash, I can still find a phone booth to make a call.

monquixote · November 2016

It depends how you look at it.

You have to look at a Kemper like a mobile phone or a car, not like a guitar or a painting.

The question is: "In the 5 years before it breaks/becomes obsolete will I get £1k worth of use out of it?"

MtB · November 2016

Oh yeah, what's your "great amp"? In the 3 years I had my Kemper (I'm now on a Helix) I played Bad Cat, Matchless, Two Rock, and many many more of the truly great amps that I just couldn't afford. How much did I lose in real terms - I paid £1300 when the Kemper was first introduced, and sold it 3 years later for £800. £166 per year is outstanding value as far as I'm concerned.

It's not your 10 years, granted. But surely you have your amp serviced regularly? Valves replaced? Rebias? How much does that cost?

Voxman · November 2016

Personally I don't think of these things as an 'either or'. All these things are simply tools that do different jobs in different ways. I don't have anything as technologically advanced as a Kemper, or Helix, or AxeFX not least of which is because they are too expensive for me, and I'm very happy with my lower tech gear which does what I want. Also, my needs are for live gigging, not recording. Brief run-down of my current gear and what I use it for:

Vox Tonelab SE - main gig rig now (got the TLSE because I was so pleased with the TLLE), bit big/heavy by modern standards but plugs straight into PA or amp and sounds good, easy to use on stage, easy/fast patch/stomp mode switching, built in volume & expression pedals, decent tuner, great range of amp tones & effects. Not perfect, but does what I need. Vox Tonelab LE (now a back-up) and ST - the latter is for fun when I just need something small, light, when I don't need lots of patches e.g. jamming with friends. Brilliant for covers where I need fast changing between different tones.
Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX, DSM/valve hybrid amp - great versatile rig (esp with the AD212 extn cab and VC12 floor controller, and EQ/BBE Sonic stomp and Boosta Grande in FX loop) but too big and heavy (I have a bad back) hence the move to TLLE/TLSE. Unlikely to use for gigs but is main amp I use at home. Haven'y got heart to sell it - too good, & i wouldn't get much. Brilliant for covers.
Conventional pedal board for use with 'straight' amps.
Marshall Vavestate 8080 '80v' MkI. Great sounding, 2 channels, light, versatile 1 x 12" SS combo with an ECC83 in gain channel, and excellent Celestion G12T75 speaker. Very reliable, great back-up amp and sounds good on its own or with Tonelabs & conventional pedalboard
Laney Cub 12R - speaker upgrade with Vintage 30, and revalved with JJ hand tested valves. Smashing little 1x12 combo, very eraunchy, loud, sounds great standalone, with Tonelabs or pedalboard. I use this for small club gigs and at home (has 15w and less than 1w input which is handy, and digital reverb is pretty good too).
Laney VC30-210 plus GS112VE 1x12 extn cab. Lovely 'Class A' amp (OK, class A/B strictly) The 2 x 10" Jensen's give a different flavour 'vintage' tone that you don't get from 2x12 amps, & has very flexible speaker out options. Loud, lighter and smaller than 2x12 version, with acutronics spring reverb, 2 channels. very loud, ballsey amp with a character that's more Vox but with a bit of Marshall too. Was used for gigs/rehearsals but too loud for home use, and sadly doesn't get the use anymore.
2003 Marshall JCM2000 DSL401 1x12 combo. Two channel plus higher gain 'red button' option. 40w but loud as heck, spring reverb underwhelming, but typical 'Marshall' crunch. Used for gigging & band practice, mainly with conventional pedal-board, where I don't need lots of effects eg blues, classic rock rock stuff. I might upgrade the speaker next year.
Finally, a little Vox Mini-3 - great fun, battery or mains, brilliant for jamming downstairs or taking to a friend for little jams. Weighs nothing, small speaker, but some decent sounds/effects for its size.

So, it's not that one piece of gear is 'better' than another, just that they each have their uses, and pro's & con's and I use them for different things - sometimes it can just depend on my 'mood' too. Also, the fact that my gear is older tech, it actually makes me better from the perspective of learning to get the best out of what I have and not being overly sensitive to nuances that mostly just get lost in the mix anyway. I've tried Line 6 HD500X, Boss GT100, and Zoom G5 - each had their pros/cons but even though these are no longer 'hip' pieces of gear I just kept coming back to my out of date Tonelabs that just work for me as gigging rigs.

The amps too just suit me, and fit need/budget - I know there are some wonderful amps out there but as I've got older I'm actually pretty content to stick with what I have and I do try now not to get caught up in the 'grass is always greener' gas trap which can be costly, time-consuming, frustrating, and sometimes disapoointing.

Also I'm completely out of space in my little den anyway!

joeyowen · November 2016

Sorry, but I don't agree!

Your Kemper, much like a valve amp, will be just as good in 10 years time as it is now. (might actually be in better condition...)

The fact that you will be tempted by newer tech is not a bad thing, if it is... that is your own gas speaking!

Voxman · November 2016

joeyowen said:

Sorry, but I don't agree!

Your Kemper, much like a valve amp, will be just as good in 10 years time as it is now. (might actually be in better condition...)

The fact that you will be tempted by newer tech is not a bad thing, if it is... that is your own gas speaking!

And I think that's spot on - if something sounds good now, it will still sound good 10 yrs on - the fact something might come along that sounds better is irrelevant. And hey, if you're happy with your rig and you don't need the flexibility, portability, or features of a Kemper, then you don't need a Kemper (or Helix, or AxeFx)!

Jonathanthomas83 · November 2016

Opened a whole can of worms here mate. I got torn a new one for saying something similar not so long ago! Best of luck!

Deijavoo · November 2016

The Guthrie interview at 01:10:00 from the other day is pretty much how I feel at this point right now. I'm sure it will change in the future though.

kjdowd · November 2016

Read in guitarist today that Neville Martin, who I understood to be a bit of a tube amp fan and general gear fanatic, has moved to a Helix for big gigs and loves it.

Helix/keeper/fractal stuff is genuinely excellent inspirational kit. No worries if not for you, but neither should it necessarily be dismissed out of hand.

meltedbuzzbox · November 2016

Voxman said:

Personally I don't think of these things as an 'either or'. All these things are simply tools that do different jobs in different ways. I don't have anything as technologically advanced as a Kemper, or Helix, or AxeFX not least of which is because they are too expensive for me, and I'm very happy with my lower tech gear which does what I want. Also, my needs are for live gigging, not recording. Brief run-down of my current gear and what I use it for:
Vox Tonelab SE - main gig rig now (got the TLSE because I was so pleased with the TLLE), bit big/heavy by modern standards but plugs straight into PA or amp and sounds good, easy to use on stage, easy/fast patch/stomp mode switching, built in volume & expression pedals, decent tuner, great range of amp tones & effects. Not perfect, but does what I need. Vox Tonelab LE (now a back-up) and ST - the latter is for fun when I just need something small, light, when I don't need lots of patches e.g. jamming with friends. Brilliant for covers where I need fast changing between different tones.
Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX, DSM/valve hybrid amp - great versatile rig (esp with the AD212 extn cab and VC12 floor controller, and EQ/BBE Sonic stomp and Boosta Grande in FX loop) but too big and heavy (I have a bad back) hence the move to TLLE/TLSE. Unlikely to use for gigs but is main amp I use at home. Haven'y got heart to sell it - too good, & i wouldn't get much. Brilliant for covers.
Conventional pedal board for use with 'straight' amps.
Marshall Vavestate 8080 '80v' MkI. Great sounding, 2 channels, light, versatile 1 x 12" SS combo with an ECC83 in gain channel, and excellent Celestion G12T75 speaker. Very reliable, great back-up amp and sounds good on its own or with Tonelabs & conventional pedalboard
Laney Cub 12R - speaker upgrade with Vintage 30, and revalved with JJ hand tested valves. Smashing little 1x12 combo, very eraunchy, loud, sounds great standalone, with Tonelabs or pedalboard. I use this for small club gigs and at home (has 15w and less than 1w input which is handy, and digital reverb is pretty good too).
Laney VC30-210 plus GS112VE 1x12 extn cab. Lovely 'Class A' amp (OK, class A/B strictly) The 2 x 10" Jensen's give a different flavour 'vintage' tone that you don't get from 2x12 amps, & has very flexible speaker out options. Loud, lighter and smaller than 2x12 version, with acutronics spring reverb, 2 channels. very loud, ballsey amp with a character that's more Vox but with a bit of Marshall too. Was used for gigs/rehearsals but too loud for home use, and sadly doesn't get the use anymore.
2003 Marshall JCM2000 DSL401 1x12 combo. Two channel plus higher gain 'red button' option. 40w but loud as heck, spring reverb underwhelming, but typical 'Marshall' crunch. Used for gigging & band practice, mainly with conventional pedal-board, where I don't need lots of effects eg blues, classic rock rock stuff. I might upgrade the speaker next year.
Finally, a little Vox Mini-3 - great fun, battery or mains, brilliant for jamming downstairs or taking to a friend for little jams. Weighs nothing, small speaker, but some decent sounds/effects for its size.
So, it's not that one piece of gear is 'better' than another, just that they each have their uses, and pro's & con's and I use them for different things - sometimes it can just depend on my 'mood' too. Also, the fact that my gear is older tech, it actually makes me better from the perspective of learning to get the best out of what I have and not being overly sensitive to nuances that mostly just get lost in the mix anyway. I've tried Line 6 HD500X, Boss GT100, and Zoom G5 - each had their pros/cons but even though these are no longer 'hip' pieces of gear I just kept coming back to my out of date Tonelabs that just work for me as gigging rigs.

The amps too just suit me, and fit need/budget - I know there are some wonderful amps out there but as I've got older I'm actually pretty content to stick with what I have and I do try now not to get caught up in the 'grass is always greener' gas trap which can be costly, time-consuming, frustrating, and sometimes disapoointing.

Also I'm completely out of space in my little den anyway!

You need a good amp :-p

Sell the lot and buy one with the proceeds

equalsql · November 2016

carlos said:

Yeah man, that's why I don't have a mobile phone. I just carry coins with me all the time, and if I need to make a call while at home I'll walk to the post office. Even if all the cell towers crash, I can still find a phone booth to make a call.

Ahh @carlos, a man after my own heart at last. I'm still looking for a portable payphone with a dial instead of buttons

digitalscream · November 2016

CDM83 said:

whereas, my trusty quality valve amp will still be just that - a great amp.

Question #1 - how many valves do you think you'll have replaced in it?
Question #2 - how much will you have spent servicing it?
Question #3 - do you seriously believe you'll still have the same amp in 10 years' time?
Question #4 - how much do you think commercially-available valves' cost and quality will change over the next 10 years?

octatonic · November 2016

CDM83 said:

i say this without having tried one....

but my reluctance to get involved is that, in 10 years time, i expect the kemper/fractal/helix etc will be replaced by much newer and more advanced models.

whereas, my trusty quality valve amp will still be just that - a great amp.

maybe i'll change my mind after i try one - but wondering if many people are having similar reservations with all these modelling alternatives....?

Understood. Thanks for sharing.

thecolourbox · November 2016

If it sounds good now surely it will always sound good?

Teetonetal · November 2016

As someone who went through 4 valve amps last year, I'm not sure that's true.

To be honest helix is good enough for me. Any sound quality gain here on out is going to be marginal.

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