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I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
We should never blindly trust the system
I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
I agree with this too but there is culpability on both sides.
There is one bald and inconvenient truth about which the campaigners seem to have a mental block. Many of the victims were crushed by OTHER FOOTBALL SUPPORTERS. This fact seems to have become - literally - unspeakable. It must be a tough thing to accept. It is usually easier to blame an "out" group rather than one's own immediate social circle.
Thus, there are cases to answer for both negligence on the part of the police and individual instances of inadvertent unlawful killing.
There is no easy answer. Even if there were, you can be certain that somebody somewhere wouldn't like it.
Seriously? “Many of the victims were crushed by other football supporters”. THEY ALL WERE. But that fact alone doesn’t make them culpable.
Do you know anything about crowd control? The people flooding into the stand had no idea what was happening. Once they did realise it was too late.
I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
If I have come across as having a faith in the system that’s blind, or just accepting then that’s not the case.
There isn’t really a better way of doing it. If you have a system and introduce humans there is always going to be the chance that it will be corrupted - that’s human nature.
My issue with the way the thread was potentially going was the fact that assuming corruption at all stages of the system, at all points in time and at all stages is dangerous. Be cautious and have checks and balances in place - but don’t assume that every single bit of it is corrupt for fear of introducing a state which effectively rules out the chance of justice.
The fact that the families have got to this point shows that the system can be influenced and changed (even temporarily) to produce a Just result. If we assume the system is always corrupt we will end up never being satisfied that justice is done until every permutation of what could have been the truth has been tested, and punishments handed out “just in case”
what you meant I don't know, I can only go by your words.
"My issue with the way the thread was potentially going was the fact that assuming corruption at all stages of the system, at all points in time and at all stages is dangerous" hmmm, heavy on the hyperbole here. And again, no one actually said that.
I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
That point is in response to:
And I didn’t mean blindly, but cautiously.
I’m really not sure why you are pushing so hard here - it’s just my opinion. Anyway, I’m done with this. I’ve explained what I think, and you are getting borderline passive aggressive about my opinion.
and saying someone is being passive aggressive doesn't make it true.In fact, saying someone is being passive aggressive when they're not is merely an attempt to silence them.
I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
Wow there now, speaking as someone that lost someone there that day, thats utter bollocks.
The fans were allowed into that section when someone gave the order to open the gate and let them in. There was never enough room in there for all those fans, and those at the back pushing their way in to watch their team would have been completely unaware they were causing a crush that was killing fellow supporters hundreds of yards away.
Before you give an opinion as fact I'd suggest you do some research.
Edit : shame on whoever gave you a wisdom for that post too, children died that day and people are still believing the story told by the police. Don't tell me always the victims etc
If anything, I’m interested to know how the balance of trust/mistrust works with an opinion contrary to my own. My passive aggressive comment was probably wrong - so apologies. If anything I meant that you were reiterating your point of view without either trying to understand mine or break it down and it came across as a “This is what you need to believe” as with the
comment. Ok, I can accept that - but why not?
I’m not an unreasonable person. Neither do I usually resort to hyperbole. I’m genuinely interested to understand how a broadly sceptical view can equate to an endpoint - in this instance where we truly feel that justice has been served? For me, I’d interpret not blindly trusting the system as not really ever trusting a law courts judgement on the case of those brought to trial for this disaster.
I’m not looking to pick a fight. If anything the OP’s post annoyed me - it’s daily mail sensationalism with no substance, thought or proper argumentation. Ironic
This case proves perfectly what happens when the executive, judiciary and the legislature act in cahoots with a complicit 4th estate, if it hadn't been for the tireless efforts of the families, this event would've been conveniently forgotten.
I'm not locked in here with you, you are locked in here with me.
I’m a History graduate and did a lot of the things you are talking about from many periods of history.
Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
All pretty much sounds like the fans were blameless like I said then, and the police made mistake after mistake, along with the FA for even allowing the match to played at the stadium in the first place.
What followed was 2 decades of police, government and press collusion to blame the fans, calling them drunks, claiming they were looting the dead.
Then add in the fact the scores of ambulances that were prevented from going in to the stadium to help.
There's plenty of blame to go around here, I just don't see how it should be shared by the supporters.
Feedback
That's ok then.
Edit: sorry was being a dick