Shipping insurance provided by third party companies

Bigsby · August 2022

andy_k said:

I prefer to pay / charge the extra for overnight delivery and excessive packaging, photographic evidence as a record.
It is ridiculous that we cannot trust a courier to deliver a package that we have paid full price for transit, and can not rely on that service to be carried out without gambling on it not getting damaged or lost.
The small print on most of the insurance policies make it a pointless exercise,and just an excuse to allow terrible service for the un-insured.
If I paid a plumber to fix my toilet, and it didn't work, I would have a good case in small claims, up to 5K, so why should a professional courier be allowed to operate with impunity, by offering a simple A-B delivery with no guarantees?
Anything over 5K, I would prefer to deliver myself.

Why call them a 'professional courier'? It's not as though there are semi-professional or amateur couriers who just do it at the weekend for a bit of fun. Sticking 'professional' in front doesn't change the way they work. They'e just 'couriers' who pick up your parcel and chuck* it in the back of a van, drive around doing this with other parcels for hours, then chuck the parcel out of the van and onto a loading bay. After sorting, your parcel will get chucked into a lorry and driven to another hub, where more chucking about will happen, until it ends up in a delivery van. (*Sometimes the 'chucking', might be 'placing' other times it might be 'slinging', etc.)

That's just what couriers do. Guitars are delicate, which is why it's so hard to insure them whist they're in the hands of couriers.

I don't really get the plumber analogy. Couriers have T&Cs, most likely any loss or damage will only entitle you to a refund of the shipping costs. They might be clumsy but they're not stupid.

TheMadMick · August 2022

robinbowes said:

Hmm, I also just read this in Article 6 of their T&Cs:

6.2. THE PARCEL INSURANCE DOES NOT COVER:
ITEMS SHIPPED THAT ARE SOLD/PURCHASED ON AN ONLINE MARKETPLACE BY INDIVIDUALS. ONLY OFFICIAL BUSINESSES WILL BE COVERED.
Doesn't this render Secursus useless for most people selling on here?

Why then does the headline page of their website say:

"Payment is done on a case-by-case basis. Our service doesn’t require prepaid credits, and no need to subscribe or commit to a number of parcels. Therefore, it is open to everyone, whether you are an individual or a registered business."

Hmmmmm???

sev112 · August 2022

andy_k said:

I prefer to pay / charge the extra for overnight delivery and excessive packaging, photographic evidence as a record.
It is ridiculous that we cannot trust a courier to deliver a package that we have paid full price for transit, and can not rely on that service to be carried out without gambling on it not getting damaged or lost.
The small print on most of the insurance policies make it a pointless exercise,and just an excuse to allow terrible service for the un-insured.
If I paid a plumber to fix my toilet, and it didn't work, I would have a good case in small claims, up to 5K, so why should a professional courier be allowed to operate with impunity, by offering a simple A-B delivery with no guarantees?
Anything over 5K, I would prefer to deliver myself.

Ignore the T&Cs, they won’t stand up in a court, incl small claims court. They are a courier . They have only one service, to take your good and safely and certainly deliver them to the location. Ignore insurance. No matter how they try to get out of it by tiny small print “T&Cs”, if the basis of the contact isn’t to safely and certainly deliver the goods then they are in breach, and liable for paying you damages in the event that they don’t do it.

Taking out a 3rd party insurance through them is just asking for trouble.

If they don’t deliver the service you asked for (safely and certainly delivering) then tell them you are going to the Small Claims court

fretmeister · September 2022

sev112 said:

andy_k said:

I prefer to pay / charge the extra for overnight delivery and excessive packaging, photographic evidence as a record.
It is ridiculous that we cannot trust a courier to deliver a package that we have paid full price for transit, and can not rely on that service to be carried out without gambling on it not getting damaged or lost.
The small print on most of the insurance policies make it a pointless exercise,and just an excuse to allow terrible service for the un-insured.
If I paid a plumber to fix my toilet, and it didn't work, I would have a good case in small claims, up to 5K, so why should a professional courier be allowed to operate with impunity, by offering a simple A-B delivery with no guarantees?
Anything over 5K, I would prefer to deliver myself.

Ignore the T&Cs, they won’t stand up in a court, incl small claims court. They are a courier . They have only one service, to take your good and safely and certainly deliver them to the location. Ignore insurance. No matter how they try to get out of it by tiny small print “T&Cs”, if the basis of the contact isn’t to safely and certainly deliver the goods then they are in breach, and liable for paying you damages in the event that they don’t do it.
Taking out a 3rd party insurance through them is just asking for trouble.
If they don’t deliver the service you asked for (safely and certainly delivering) then tell them you are going to the Small Claims court

That's not how it works.

Other than excluding liability for injury and death (and a few other things that are irrelevant to this) UK law allows for limiting of liabilities by contract.

fretmeister · September 2022

I was confused by their terms and their lack of a definition of "Online Marketplace" and I was thinking about a possible difference between here and Basschat - because Basschat requires a selling fee.

So I sent them an email

"Dear Sirs

I was looking at your tems - Art 6.2 in particular.

Can you confirm how you define "online marketplace" please? I understand that services like ebay would be an online marketplace, but there are some guitar forums where private sellers have to pay a small fee or subscription to be able to sell.

It's no different to a fee for putting a private advert in a newspaper. The website owners do not get a cut of the sale proceeds or take any interest in the transaction at all. Would that be considered an online marketplace and thus mean you would decline cover? What about classified adverts where the website does not charge a fee at all? Would that be different?

Perhaps your list of definitions could be updated to clarify that.

Thank you, and kind regards"

And I got an answer

"Hello

This article applies especially to eBay sales. You can insure guitars that were sold on a guitar forum.

Should you need more information, please let me know.

Kind regards,

Marie Vastel | Account Manager
E : marie@secursus.com
W : https://www.secursus.com"

So that bit is clarified. Still need to make sure their strict packaging requirements are met.

TBH if I ship a guitar and it's going in a guitar box I tape over all the logos and stuff anyway.

robinbowes · September 2022

Good job @fretmeister, have a wis.

Mellish · September 2022

If it was me and my guitar, and it needed a setup/repair/refret, I'd take it myself. Sure, may be inconvenient, may mean time off work, may involve a train (maybe all of those) but you know it's going to get there safely

guitarjack66 · September 2022

It seems there is a market for a 'Man/Woman/non binary in a van' type service for guitars and musical instruments in general nowadays. The cost of fuel and such would inhibit most longer than local journeys. 'Musical instrument taxis' perhaps?

sev112 · September 2022

fretmeister said:

sev112 said:

andy_k said:

I prefer to pay / charge the extra for overnight delivery and excessive packaging, photographic evidence as a record.
It is ridiculous that we cannot trust a courier to deliver a package that we have paid full price for transit, and can not rely on that service to be carried out without gambling on it not getting damaged or lost.
The small print on most of the insurance policies make it a pointless exercise,and just an excuse to allow terrible service for the un-insured.
If I paid a plumber to fix my toilet, and it didn't work, I would have a good case in small claims, up to 5K, so why should a professional courier be allowed to operate with impunity, by offering a simple A-B delivery with no guarantees?
Anything over 5K, I would prefer to deliver myself.

Ignore the T&Cs, they won’t stand up in a court, incl small claims court. They are a courier . They have only one service, to take your good and safely and certainly deliver them to the location. Ignore insurance. No matter how they try to get out of it by tiny small print “T&Cs”, if the basis of the contact isn’t to safely and certainly deliver the goods then they are in breach, and liable for paying you damages in the event that they don’t do it.
Taking out a 3rd party insurance through them is just asking for trouble.
If they don’t deliver the service you asked for (safely and certainly delivering) then tell them you are going to the Small Claims court

That's not how it works.

Other than excluding liability for injury and death (and a few other things that are irrelevant to this) UK law allows for limiting of liabilities by contract.

but what you can’t do with T&Cs, especially very long ones written in legalise for a simple contract is to e.g. say
- we are selling apples
- however if you don’t get an apple, or if the apple is a pear, or if the apple is damaged beyond use, then we are not liable but you still have to pay. All we endeavour to do is send you something, in fact we might not even send you anything at all and we are not liable.

Those T&Cs would not be enforceable
but what would be would be an expectation that if you pay for an item to be safely couriered to a location, that the standard duty of care is that basic tenet.

Bigsby · September 2022

guitarjack66 said:

It seems there is a market for a 'Man/Woman/non binary in a van' type service for guitars and musical instruments in general nowadays. The cost of fuel and such would inhibit most longer than local journeys. 'Musical instrument taxis' perhaps?

How would that be different from a normal taxi? Put another way, why can't a taxi can be used for this, or a door-to-door courier service (assuming they still exist, there were tons of them in London in the 80s), and of course, a 'person in a van' (PC version doesn't scan as well!). A big factor here is the availability of these services in your area, but a taxi is the most likely possibility outside large towns.

Even in a city the size of London, and with superb marketing skills, I suspect a 'musical instrument taxi' would spend most of each day sitting around, waiting for a job to come in. Too specialised a service IMO.

guitarjack66 · September 2022

Bigsby said:

guitarjack66 said:

It seems there is a market for a 'Man/Woman/non binary in a van' type service for guitars and musical instruments in general nowadays. The cost of fuel and such would inhibit most longer than local journeys. 'Musical instrument taxis' perhaps?

How would that be different from a normal taxi? Put another way, why can't a taxi can be used for this, or a door-to-door courier service (assuming they still exist, there were tons of them in London in the 80s), and of course, a 'person in a van' (PC version doesn't scan as well!). A big factor here is the availability of these services in your area, but a taxi is the most likely possibility outside large towns.

Even in a city the size of London, and with superb marketing skills, I suspect a 'musical instrument taxi' would spend most of each day sitting around, waiting for a job to come in. Too specialised a service IMO.

So musical instrument taxis have/are still a thing? Just under the guise of a normal taxi. I suppose its a good idea if you consider it worth the cost. 'Pick up from Rosemount place.A Mr Violin and Miss Piccolo to the Royal Albert Hall.'

fretmeister · September 2022

sev112 said:

fretmeister said:

sev112 said:

andy_k said:

I prefer to pay / charge the extra for overnight delivery and excessive packaging, photographic evidence as a record.
It is ridiculous that we cannot trust a courier to deliver a package that we have paid full price for transit, and can not rely on that service to be carried out without gambling on it not getting damaged or lost.
The small print on most of the insurance policies make it a pointless exercise,and just an excuse to allow terrible service for the un-insured.
If I paid a plumber to fix my toilet, and it didn't work, I would have a good case in small claims, up to 5K, so why should a professional courier be allowed to operate with impunity, by offering a simple A-B delivery with no guarantees?
Anything over 5K, I would prefer to deliver myself.

Ignore the T&Cs, they won’t stand up in a court, incl small claims court. They are a courier . They have only one service, to take your good and safely and certainly deliver them to the location. Ignore insurance. No matter how they try to get out of it by tiny small print “T&Cs”, if the basis of the contact isn’t to safely and certainly deliver the goods then they are in breach, and liable for paying you damages in the event that they don’t do it.
Taking out a 3rd party insurance through them is just asking for trouble.
If they don’t deliver the service you asked for (safely and certainly delivering) then tell them you are going to the Small Claims court

That's not how it works.

Other than excluding liability for injury and death (and a few other things that are irrelevant to this) UK law allows for limiting of liabilities by contract.

but what you can’t do with T&Cs, especially very long ones written in legalise for a simple contract is to e.g. say
- we are selling apples
- however if you don’t get an apple, or if the apple is a pear, or if the apple is damaged beyond use, then we are not liable but you still have to pay. All we endeavour to do is send you something, in fact we might not even send you anything at all and we are not liable.

Those T&Cs would not be enforceable
but what would be would be an expectation that if you pay for an item to be safely couriered to a location, that the standard duty of care is that basic tenet.

They don’t avoid liability.

They limit it.

So you agree to terms that if the item is delivered damaged they only have to pay £50, or if it’s completely lost, say £100.

Perfectly legal and enforceable. Freedom of contract means the sender doesn’t have to book them, and they accept those terms.

So there is a duty of care and if that is breached the compensation limits have already been agreed by both parties in advance.

Howdy, Stranger!

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Shipping insurance provided by third party companies

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