Edge of break up tones small fender rabbit hole

Delaware_123 · February 13

Some great info here guys thankyou. This really is a rabbit hole isn’t it. I’m confused whether to pick up a Princeton or spend abit more on a Victoria or go with a handwired Princeton. There are so many options and I’m not sure wether it’s worth spending the extra cash on something handwired

Clecko · February 13

Can't add lots to the comments already above, but I've been round the houses a few times on this. The key conclusions I've reached are:

Valve amps are not the best solution for this
Lots of factors in what will make a valve amp enjoyable at lower volumes, but what's often overlooked is the size of the cabinet and speaker - a single, small speaker in a small-footprint cabinet is generally a touch lacklustre to say the least (they can sound good when recorded, but are underwhelming in the room)
A larger valve amp with an attenuator gets much better results, but it's still hard to get the sound in your head at volumes that will keep your neighbours off your back
Better still, in my experience, is a larger valve amp set clean at the lowest possible volume that doesn't sound like it's being strangled, then hit it with an overdrive pedal in whatever flavour you find most pleasing (for me, a Box of Rock into a 2x12 Marshall Bluesbreaker)
You need some decent reverb
Easier all round is a digital option - either a modelling unit or, as others have said, the ToneMasters seem to be hitting the sweet spot for a lot of people
A lot of what we perceive as great tone is actually high volume, with a lot of air moving in the room - it makes you feel it as well as hear it (difficult to explain, easy to experience if you go to a rehearsal room)
Try not to go too far down the rabbit hole - you can't recreate the experience of winding a valve amp up in a club or hall if you're in a domestic living room and you'll probably have more fun (and definitely improve more) if you just get a Yamaha THR-10 and... play your guitar.

Good luck with the hunt!

Neilybob · February 13

Delaware_123 said:

I used to own an old 70s silver face champ which was cool but the amp that I’ve been having a lot of fun with at home is an old Marshall reverb 12, cracking little amp

Me too! With ES335 or a Les Paul it sounds fantastic in the living room. Actually find it really dynamic.

Neilybob · February 13

If you want to go louder then I love the dynamics I get with my modded 5e3 amp. Clean, edge of breakup and dirty all with a boost pedal and the guitar knob.

Stuckfast · February 13

Princeton is too loud for home use if you want to hear any breakup IMO. I have a silverface Vibrochamp with a replacement speaker which is easily my favourite amp, but even that gets pretty loud before you get much dirt from it.

Delaware_123 · February 13

Clecko said:

Can't add lots to the comments already above, but I've been round the houses a few times on this. The key conclusions I've reached are:

Valve amps are not the best solution for this
Lots of factors in what will make a valve amp enjoyable at lower volumes, but what's often overlooked is the size of the cabinet and speaker - a single, small speaker in a small-footprint cabinet is generally a touch lacklustre to say the least (they can sound good when recorded, but are underwhelming in the room)
A larger valve amp with an attenuator gets much better results, but it's still hard to get the sound in your head at volumes that will keep your neighbours off your back
Better still, in my experience, is a larger valve amp set clean at the lowest possible volume that doesn't sound like it's being strangled, then hit it with an overdrive pedal in whatever flavour you find most pleasing (for me, a Box of Rock into a 2x12 Marshall Bluesbreaker)
You need some decent reverb
Easier all round is a digital option - either a modelling unit or, as others have said, the ToneMasters seem to be hitting the sweet spot for a lot of people
A lot of what we perceive as great tone is actually high volume, with a lot of air moving in the room - it makes you feel it as well as hear it (difficult to explain, easy to experience if you go to a rehearsal room)
Try not to go too far down the rabbit hole - you can't recreate the experience of winding a valve amp up in a club or hall if you're in a domestic living room and you'll probably have more fun (and definitely improve more) if you just get a Yamaha THR-10 and... play your guitar.
Good luck with the hunt!

Thankyou for this, this is great info and gives me lots to think about.

Delaware_123 · February 13

Neilybob said:

Delaware_123 said:

I used to own an old 70s silver face champ which was cool but the amp that I’ve been having a lot of fun with at home is an old Marshall reverb 12, cracking little amp

Me too! With ES335 or a Les Paul it sounds fantastic in the living room. Actually find it really dynamic.

They really are great little amps

Delaware_123 · February 13

Stuckfast said:

Princeton is too loud for home use if you want to hear any breakup IMO. I have a silverface Vibrochamp with a replacement speaker which is easily my favourite amp, but even that gets pretty loud before you get much dirt from it.

How good are these? I’ve been intrigued by these amps for a long time. So many options out there

Winny_Pooh · February 13

A low wattage amp can have a DIY L-pad fitted in the cab for edge of dirt stuff. I have a tweed deluxe clone that I use for this, but the cleans are not "blackface" scooped mids.

I used to have a 70's champ for this job but it was not as dirty and the low end, even into a big cab was not enough.

A matter of taste really.

A Morgan Ac20 could do too as well as s Tone king Gremlin

Clecko · February 13

Delaware_123 said:

Clecko said:

Can't add lots to the comments already above, but I've been round the houses a few times on this. The key conclusions I've reached are:

Valve amps are not the best solution for this
Lots of factors in what will make a valve amp enjoyable at lower volumes, but what's often overlooked is the size of the cabinet and speaker - a single, small speaker in a small-footprint cabinet is generally a touch lacklustre to say the least (they can sound good when recorded, but are underwhelming in the room)
A larger valve amp with an attenuator gets much better results, but it's still hard to get the sound in your head at volumes that will keep your neighbours off your back
Better still, in my experience, is a larger valve amp set clean at the lowest possible volume that doesn't sound like it's being strangled, then hit it with an overdrive pedal in whatever flavour you find most pleasing (for me, a Box of Rock into a 2x12 Marshall Bluesbreaker)
You need some decent reverb
Easier all round is a digital option - either a modelling unit or, as others have said, the ToneMasters seem to be hitting the sweet spot for a lot of people
A lot of what we perceive as great tone is actually high volume, with a lot of air moving in the room - it makes you feel it as well as hear it (difficult to explain, easy to experience if you go to a rehearsal room)
Try not to go too far down the rabbit hole - you can't recreate the experience of winding a valve amp up in a club or hall if you're in a domestic living room and you'll probably have more fun (and definitely improve more) if you just get a Yamaha THR-10 and... play your guitar.
Good luck with the hunt!

Thankyou for this, this is great info and gives me lots to think about.

Classy response. You're welcome. FWIW, I've ended up with a Helix Floor plugged into a Seymour Duncan PowerStage170* plugged into a 2x12 cabinet (well, actually my Bluesbreaker amp, but I've disconnected the amp itself from the speakers). I don't endlessly plough through menus and options.

When someone wanted me to do an open mic accompanying her vocals including some songs by London Grammar, it was good to be able to add lots of ambiance to fill the sound out, but for the most part there are a few amp models that I particularly like, so I have some patches with those in and largely stick to them.

I could carry on chasing the perfect tone, but for the way I play - which is mostly at home for my own pleasure and relaxation - this is the best solution I've had by far. And I've tried a few, including 5, 15, 30 and 50 watt amps of varying values. It's just about the right tools for the job.

* @digitalscream recommended the PS170 to me on the basis that if you turn up to play in a different space to the one you're used to and the sound is suddenly very different (too flubby, not cutting through, piercing treble etc), the tone controls allow you to rectify it very easily and intuitively by turning a physical knob rather than adjusting your patch. It's superb. I have found that I like most patches best with the mid control way further down than I would imagine when playing (like, around 9 o'Clock), but I turn it back up if I'm playing alongside other instruments or the guitar disappears a bit.

Clecko · February 13

Oh, and it's important to turn the cabinet emulation block off on the Helix when playing through a real cab. Otherwise it sounds muffled and a bit weird.

JohnPerry · February 13

I have four small vintage Fender amps here and a TK Gremlin and they all sound great set clean at home but are very loud cranked. But for edge-of-breakup just get a Caline Pure Sky, 25 quid on amazon. Retains your Fender tone, just adds a little grit.

I have fancier ODs, but if edge-of-breakup is all you want that pedal is perfect (it's a Timmy knockoff)

Fiddlesticks_ · February 13

munckee said:

I’ve had silver face champ which I really liked, gremlin, 68 and 65 princetons and a super champ x 2. I tried the tone master and the reissue vibro champ and didn’t like either of those for cleans.

The silver face champ and the 65 reissue Princeton were the best for me. With an attenuator the 65 is a perfect home amp, better cleans than the gremlin and reverb and tremolo.

I still have the Princeton, plus the super champ x 2, it’s as good at least as the tone master and has tweed champ, tweed deluxe and more plus effects. Plus I can take it out without worrying about an expensive amp.

Long term I’m going to try and get an early 70s Princeton I think.

@munckee what attenuator do you use with the '65 Princeton out of interest, and how is it?

munckee · February 13

I use the bugeera was £60 second hand and works brilliantly with a blackface amp.

Paul_C · February 13

Based on my limited experience (since Sunday) of running a Tonex pedal into a MK1 Katana, I would suggest that running a Tonex pedal into a MK1 Katana might get you pretty close to what you're after.

Winny_Pooh · February 14

Paul_C said:

Based on my limited experience (since Sunday) of running a Tonex pedal into a MK1 Katana, I would suggest that running a Tonex pedal into a MK1 Katana might get you pretty close to what you're after.

Not for me

Fiddlesticks_ · February 14

munckee said:

I use the bugeera was £60 second hand and works brilliantly with a blackface amp.

Thank you sir. I need an attenuator for mine at some point so I’ll have a look at them (and probably a load more too

)

*edit - load pun not intended

Yorkie · February 14

munckee said:

I use the bugeera was £60 second hand and works brilliantly with a blackface amp.

Great name for a black cat!

Littlejonny · February 14

Clean amp with a pedal to get the edge of breakup. I use a Mooer Blues Crab for this job.

I chased edge of breakup for years and bought loads of amps only to find that the only way to get it consistent is to use a loud clean amp and a pedal to do the overdrive.

I’ve actually come to the conclusion that pedal distortion can be as good as amp distortion if you get the right pedal. Remember that when we’re cranking amps, we’re also impressed by the massive volume.

Delaware_123 · February 14

Littlejonny said:

Clean amp with a pedal to get the edge of breakup. I use a Mooer Blues Crab for this job.

I chased edge of breakup for years and bought loads of amps only to find that the only way to get it consistent is to use a loud clean amp and a pedal to do the overdrive.

I’ve actually come to the conclusion that pedal distortion can be as good as amp distortion if you get the right pedal. Remember that when we’re cranking amps, we’re also impressed by the massive volume.

Very good point

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Edge of break up tones small fender rabbit hole

Comments