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Sorry to derail the thread but the 13th chord is one I'm never sure about. The formula would say you can include the 9 and 11 as well. I can buy the inclusion of the 9, but the inclusion of the 11th makes it a very different sounding chord to my ear. If I saw 13th in a chord chart I'd probably omit the 11 unless my ear told me differently.
So C9 doesn't have both a 2nd and 9th because they are the same thing. We say 9th because we are extending above a 7th. So C9 is C E G Bb and D (1 3 5 b7 9).
From a theoretical perspective, 11th and 13th chords are built on this principle so C11 is C E G Bb D F (1 3 5 b7 9 11) and C13 is C E G Bb D F A (1 3 5 b7 9 11 13). But this doesn't work in practise as depending on the chord type there are clashes between certain notes and a 13th chord has 7 notes. Because of this we alter some notes or omit some altogether.
so they'ed be a momentary dissonance that then moves to a consonance..
for example, the sus4 [Root, 2nd, 5th] would resolve to a triad [Root, 3rd, 5th]
I suppose modern/jazz music theory redefined the use of suspensions and sus chords, actually muddying the waters a little with regards to understanding where a 2nd, 4th and 6th are used rather than a 9th, 11th and 13th and vice versa. Or the difference between a sus2 and an add9 (I've seen add2 quite often as it happens) and so on...
over the years I've had a few students ask "why is a sus4 called a sus4 / what does us actually mean?"
modern theory allows a sus chord to exist in isolation rather than being a moment within a transition event between two chords..
in my own songwriting and orchestral compositions I make a distinction when it comes to the use of sun chords..
so I teach my students the conventional / modern sus chord stuff but will also back it up with my own personal take on this..
so if for example I had a chord containing D, G, A, and the chords before and after were A7 and D...
and the G from the A7 eventually resolves to the F# in the final D chord..
we have a suspension event with preparation -> suspension -> resolution
the D, G, A, is a Dsus4 chord
if anything else happens so the G note is not prep'd in the previous and / or never resolves, I prefer to think of D, G, A as being a chord in isolation, and so it is D5 add11 [because there is no event sequence providing the suspended context]..
kinda nit picky I know..
and my lil' take on this has on occasion triggered some unusually strong flaming wars online [over a chord name ffs... lol]..
however.. when I'm writing out chord charts I personally find it useful because I can immediately see the difference between them and so be able to appropriately voice the chord..
I like your logic and sadly I can very well imagine people getting bent out of shape over it. Although I have to admit, I wouldn't appreciate seeing D5add11 on a chart at short notice!
@ChrisMusic a couple of things regarding the second post.
5 - perfect 4th up an octave is an 11th (not major 3rd/diminished 4th)
6 - Is also a #11
I suspect there are some other addendums to that post, so if anything else comes to mind, please let me know.
Thanks for adding more depth to the conversation, I am so out of my depth with chord conventions (and other things!), so the more knowledge you can share on here the better. I can guarantee that there will be many folk on here who will also appreciate a stronger grounding in this.
Hopefully it will become a valuable forum resource to reference for the future. I will add it to the index of resources that I have set up in the "Music Theory" thread.
"Other Resources" index here
the "Music Theory" thread:
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/7506/full-in-depth-music-theory-see-post-3#latest
I think that both Harmonic Intervals and Melodic Intervals have a natural home in this thread, and with so much informative discussion happening, I might even get to grips with this part of theory myself, at last :o3
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With regards to naming conventions between Melodic and Harmonic intervals, it is slightly confusing to me when Melodically the flat 7th is also a minor 7th, and Harmonically Am7 is both minor 3rd and minor 7th, E7 has a minor 7th, or am I just easily confused ? Basically I do "get it", and I'm not sure I explained this very well, but it seems a little ambiguous to me.
Personally, I would love some clarification on SUS chords, and what suspension actually means, and a bit more explanation on ADD chords too would be a great starter. (Thanks for your earlier post @Lestratcaster , you paved the way to better understanding, I just need a bit more guidance.)
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@stratman3142 , what fingerings are you using for the Mu Major chords, anything Steely Dan related is always interesting IMHO ?
Maybe you could also add that to the "Your favourite chord ~ right now?" thread too?
"Your favourite chord ~ right now?"
http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/120996/your-favourite-chord-right-now#latest
I've already mention that chord on that thread - pay attention!
It's an absolute pig to play on guitar because it contains consecutive intervals of 1, 2, 3 then the 5th.
There's a bit more info on the chord at the link below:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_chord
I used the chord extensively in the change on this month's Sotm backing track (hence the pretentious title) but played it on keyboards.
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/120658/solo-of-the-month-sotm-32#latest
Sus is the absence of the 3rd. If a triad is 1 3 5, then sus2 is 1 2 5 and sus4 is 1 4 5. You can have 7sus chords where the 3rd again is replaced, most commonly with the 4th. So a voicing for C9sus4 would be 8-x-8-7-6-x giving a formula of 1 7 9 11. I've also seen this called Bb/C or G-7/C as a C11 although this isn't strictly correct.
An add chord is the addition of an extension to a triad. So add9 is 1 3 5 9.
E.g for an Asus2, the C# in the chord (formula A (root) C# (3rd) E (5th) now becomes a B as that's the 2nd interva in the key of A major.
Thus an Asus4 would raise the C# by a semi-tone and it'd now be a D as its the 4th in the key of A.