P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

ChrisMusic · September 2013

octatonic said:

@TheGuitarWeasel - how close would you say the following statement is to the truth?
"Guitar tone is 20% guitar and 80% amplifier."

And speakers too, amplifier and speaker combination is a big part of the story, and how they couple with the room...

octatonic · September 2013

ChrisMusic said:

octatonic said:

@TheGuitarWeasel - how close would you say the following statement is to the truth?
"Guitar tone is 20% guitar and 80% amplifier."

And speakers too, amplifier and speaker combination is a big part of the story, and how they couple with the room...

I guess I'm treating amplifier and speaker as one thing here.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

There are a few 'trade secrets' to good P90s ... the bigest of which is not to try and make them too hot. The huge magnet mass in a P90 is plenty to get the amp sitting up and begging ... without trying to put too much wire on it! about 8k is plenty (yes I know I used resistance there ... but I have special dispensation being as I am a member of the Secret and Worshipful Ancient Brotherhood Of Pickup Makers ... jeez you should see our initiation ceremony). You can't dick about too much with the formula ... slightly weaker magnets than you normally tend to get from the 'big boys' is a good route ... but aside from that ... you don't fix what ain't broke.
There is some dispute over wheather to scatter wind or 'machine lay' the coils ... as in theory Gibson used automatic coil winders (unlike Fender) and so some argue for perfect, coils for the perfect P90 ... or PAF for that matter. Actually I've repaired and taken apart enough old Gibson coils to know that ... at least in the fifties and early sixties the coils were very uneven ... much like scatter winding. This was due in part I believe to how worn out Gibson's machines were, and part to the fact that the 'traverse' mechanisms were constantly being overridden, as the coils would build up unevenly if left on automatic (I have this from a very good source). This meant a degree of scatter that is far more than many of the mass manufacturers use these days.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

ChrisMusic said:

octatonic said:

@TheGuitarWeasel - how close would you say the following statement is to the truth?
"Guitar tone is 20% guitar and 80% amplifier."

And speakers too, amplifier and speaker combination is a big part of the story, and how they couple with the room...

We might argue 5% here or there ... but that's the ballpark I work in

ChrisMusic · September 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said:
There are so many factors governing 'tone' ... that I could take a whole books worth of space explaining it ... but here are a few very simplified potted highlights:

Thanks @TheGuitarWeasel, less than a thousand words and I have got a pretty clear picture too. Well explained.

Now about that book, I am looking forward to that...

TheGuitarWeasel said: ...but I have special dispensation being as I am a member of the Secret and Worshipful Ancient Brotherhood Of Pickup Makers ... jeez you should see our initiation ceremony

Now I really am looking forward to that book - go get a publisher - now - I want to buy it

TheGuitarWeasel said:
There is some dispute over wheather to scatter wind or 'machine lay' the coils ... as in theory Gibson used automatic coil winders (unlike Fender) and so some argue for perfect, coils for the perfect P90 ... or PAF for that matter. Actually I've repaired and taken apart enough old Gibson coils to know that ... at least in the fifties and early sixties the coils were very uneven ... much like scatter winding. This was due in part I believe to how worn out Gibson's machines were, and part to the fact that the 'traverse' mechanisms were constantly being overridden, as the coils would build up unevenly if left on automatic (I have this from a very good source). This meant a degree of scatter that is far more than many of the mass manufacturers use these days.

This really does ring true to me. Almost every Gibson sounded different, not just acoustically through build and woods, but pickups.

It did make me wonder when I read that they machine wound back then, but that did not match my experience soundwise.

I always put it down to Dorothy on the winding machine, had a good lunch that day, or good sex the night before.

I preferred my long held beliefs, but I think your story is probably more accurate. It does have that ring of truth, so thanks for sharing.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

Interestingly the Gibbo winding machines were meant to have auto shut offs too, meaning after 5000 turns with a PAF bobbin or 10,000 with a P90 they'd stop. Problem was, that the whole shooting match relied on 'timing gears' that were made out of soft material .... so regularly chewed up. Instead of having 'down time' on the machine (and loss of bonus probably) the operators used to eithe fill the bobbins by eye ... or time them with their watches. This meant wildly different outputs as one operator put 500 turns too many ... or another put 200 too few! Most hand winders, myself included wind vintage style humbuckers with asymmetrical turn counts ... as the happy accident of all this is that mismatched coils let more high frequencies and harmonics out.

ICBM · September 2013

Ah... if your Holy Grail is a SG Junior, you're really on a hiding to nothing! You'll never get another guitar to sound like that, there are a lot of unique factors in the SG design - which often tend to fight each other, and probably explains why SGs are so variable.

First, it has a thin mahogany body, a long mahogany neck and a weak, flexible - even in a Junior, although it's the least so - neck joint. This makes the resonance of the guitar itself totally different from almost every other electric. Then, if you only put one P90 on it, you're removing the magnetic damping of the strings which a neck pickup causes. (The reason why a Fender Esquire sounds different from a Telecaster bridge pickup, even though the whole rest of the guitar is identical down to the neck pickup rout.)

So if you get a good SG Junior, where the resonances add up in a particular way, you will have a truly vibrant, lively, almost acoustic-sounding guitar that is going to be impossible to duplicate with any other design, even if you took the actual pickup off the SG and put it on...

And then on top of all that, what TheGuitarWeasel says about old Gibson pickups! So that pickup itself may have been unique.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

Out of many old Juniors I've played no two sounded identical ...

ChrisMusic · September 2013

I'm off to shoot myself !

BANG

ChrisMusic · September 2013

Hey ICBM, that really does make so much sense to me.

I knew as the guy walked out of the door with my beloved guitar that I was making (read - had already made) a monumental mistake. Nice bloke though which makes it easier. One of those things I guess.

It is the only guitar I regret selling, everything else felt replaceable, now I understand why.

Getting back and playing again is a wonderful journey though.

So lots of hot-rodding and modding and maybe a build or two coming up.

Who knows where the journey may lead.

I may even find my old Junior one day, or even a better one (if that is possible)

So a very interesting and educational thread, thanks for all the contributions so far.

It has been truly enriching. thanks all.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

If it makes you feel better I sold my 1974 Les Paul Special when I ran on hard times ... twin P90s and a sound to die for ... I regret that day soooooooo much ...

JayGee · September 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Out of many old Juniors I've played no two sounded identical ...

Never having been I'm not going to claim to have played anything like as many as you, but I have played quite a few Juniors and Specials - having developed a soft spot for them back in the mid '70s when they were just old unfashionable guitars I've tended to blag a go whenever I've had the opportunity.

Certainly they've all got their own character but I have to say I never played one I didn't like, no matter how beaten up and butchered...

ICBM · September 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said:

If it makes you feel better I sold my 1974 Les Paul Special when I ran on hard times ... twin P90s and a sound to die for ... I regret that day soooooooo much ...

I can beat that.

I sold an all-original - apart from repaired headstock - 1957 Les Paul Special in the early 90s for £1250, which is all it was worth then, and used the money to buy a home recording setup, based around a then-state-of-the-art cassette 8-track machine.

'Fast forward' a few years and the 8-track machine broke down in an unrepairable (certainly economically) way and I sold off the other bits and bobs for what they were worth... pennies basically.

The guitar would probably be worth about £12500 today.

RedRabbit · September 2013

@TheGuitarWeasel this thread has ensured that my next pickup order is from Oil City. Chances are that you'd get my custom anyway but you've shown enough knowledge and even handedness here that I know your pups will deliver the goods.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

Thanks geezer ... thing is, don't let on ... but if I didn't make pickups for a living I'd do it for fun! I absolutely love my job, and my subject, so nattering on about it is no strain

And JayGee ... I agree, I don't think I've ever played a bad old Junior ...

ChrisMusic · September 2013

@octatonic said:
Some of my favourite guitars have been ones where I put something unexpected in a guitar with something else.

... two pickups together sound really unique and it gives the guitar an interesting voice.

What I'm saying is try a few different things and see where it takes you.

I am definitely "on message" with what you are saying, serendipity often has a substantial part to play in many of the best things in life.

I am trying to get a measure of what is available and may be appropriate to try, narrowing it down so that I have a manageable project (or two, or three…)

It should be fun playing around with the permutations of guitar, pickup and switching / controls.

Oh and yes, also the amp stuff too. That is a whole other exploration, back in my past life I never did find an amp I was happy with.

So maybe this time round? Who knows?

At the risk of slipping somewhat "off topic" a bit, I am intrigued about the top end modelling like your Axe FX, does that replace the whole amp for live use, allowing you to maybe go the DI to PA and IEM route? Is it a satisfying solution? I am only just learning to play again so any live performance is a distant possibility, and the tech has moved on a lot, but I have to say I quite fancy playing to an audience again sometime. So I will need to get my head around this whole area of live kit.

Andyjr1515 · September 2013

Wow! This thread went far and wide! If I interpret, Chris, that you are not a purist but simply want to experiment with combinations that give you an interesting and useful range of sounds...? If so, I would second what someone earlier said - try a set of Seymour Duncan P-rails. The humbucker setting is definitely humbucker sounding, the P90 setting is definitely very different, much brighter but still with beef (certainly in p90 ballpark) and I agree with the other post, that the single coil setting is much too weedy to do much with :-) Doing the switch option to allow different settings for neck and bridge gives a VERY useable range of sounds. If you don't like them, I'll buy them off you to use as my third set :-) Andy

ChrisMusic · September 2013

Hey @Andyjr1515, yes you got it in one, certainly the experimental type, always have had that exploring spirit, whether thats on foot in the Andes with a camera or getting interesting sounds from a guitar, or other kit for that matter.

The P-Rail is one of several options I want to explore, and apparently risk free as you love them enough to buy them off me before I have even got them, you must really like them

Thanks for a second opinion on them. I recon on doing a "couple" of guitars, so that I can AB the results, and swap stuff around.

Much as @octatonic said about the serendipity of mixing different types too, permutations offer unexpected possibilities.

Add in a bit of (probably over-complex) switching, and sonic nirvana awaits.

ChrisMusic · September 2013

That's a sad set of stories about the ones that got away. @ICBM & @TheGuitarWeasel. I certainly feel your pain. I can't remember the money I got for mine, I think like yours it was about the going rate at the time, but I can still see the guy buying it from me, funny how memory works. What a great guitar, always fancied a 57 Special too.

And yes I have done the high tech route, just as you did, although selling my junior was actually part of a career move. High tech is always about short term return from the advantage it gives you. You need to capitalise on it while it is fashionable and in one piece. Or start a museum

I have a thread on here to prove it, AMS reverb, cost about the same as a small house back then IIRC. Now it's sad neglected and living in a cardboard box in need of TLC and not really worth that much. They do sound stupendous though. If I had spent the same on 1950s Les Pauls etc, what would they be worth now???

But then my Junior nostalgia is not about the money.

OilCityPickups · September 2013

My biggest sadness was in giving back the 65 Fiesta Red Telecaster that my mate 'P' gave me.
'P' was a regular customer at my shop ... and became a personal friend. He'd been in many 'beat' bands in the sixties but a riotous private life and a serious drink habit had reduced him to a 'comedy turn' doing the local pubs and holiday camps on the sunny Isle of Wight. His Mrs had a guesthouse and I spent many a happy evening in his basement bar till silly o clock. He had guitars hung all around the walls that he had collected in his glory years ... here a Harmony Meteor, there a Hofner Club ... and in pride of place a red sixties Tele that he had bought in Liverpool in 1966. It was battered and had little of the finish left ... matchsticks filled the holes where a Bigsby once sat ... but it played beautifully, and I always used to ask to take it down and have a go whenever we had his usual lock-ins.
One day he came into my shop with a huge brown paper parcel ... and handed it to me. It was his Tele ... he told me he wanted me to have it, as I would gig it 'properly' and get some use out of it. I protested that it was much too expensive ... but he would have none of it. So it became my main gigging guitar for two years ...
Until I heard the sad news that 'P' was critically ill ... liver failure ... complications.To cut a long story short he passed away ... leaving his wife to cope with a bucketful of debt, and the prospect of losing her home. I took the guitar straight back ... knowing what it was worth ... and it was auctioned ...along with his other guitars. She kept the hotel and I lost the best guitar I've ever gigged with ... funny old world

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P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

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