The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

Evilmags

"Stop our best companies being sold to foreign buyers" is such a stupid statement it hardly dignifies a response. When the company y is sold the capital is recycled into the UK. It is why we have a more dynamic economy than France amd a more innovative one than Germany. Companies like ARM exist here because their is a much deeper pool of equity capital in the UK than Europe. One  reason the pool is deep is that M&A is relatively easy here. Nobody does tech start ups in France. Their are loads of them in the UK. 

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

Jalapeno

Evilmags said:

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A part perhaps, though not a large part.  There's a whole cultural aspect - the fact that Herr Engineer is as respected as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor. Their work ethic is better than ours. Germany still has heavy engineering, car building and the like, they still make a lot of things that the rest of the world want to buy (unlike UK PLC).

If you want to fund a country's economy wholly on Capital Market trading don't be surprised if there's a huge welfare state and underclass.

VimFuego

Jalapeno said:

Evilmags said:

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A part perhaps, though not a large part.  There's a whole cultural aspect - the fact that Herr Engineer is as respected as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor. Their work ethic is better than ours. Germany still has heavy engineering, car building and the like, they still make a lot of things that the rest of the world want to buy (unlike UK PLC).

If you want to fund a country's economy wholly on Capital Market trading don't be surprised if there's a huge welfare state and underclass.

this, as an employer finance employs very few people (and with automation, that will decrease), so you have to do something with all the other people. We need to start thinking outside the existing paradigm, need to start thinking about things like universal income etc.

Axe_meister

Evilmags said:

"Stop our best companies being sold to foreign buyers" is such a stupid statement it hardly dignifies a response. When the company y is sold the capital is recycled into the UK. It is why we have a more dynamic economy than France amd a more innovative one than Germany. Companies like ARM exist here because their is a much deeper pool of equity capital in the UK than Europe. One  reason the pool is deep is that M&A is relatively easy here. Nobody does tech start ups in France. Their are loads of them in the UK. 

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

The initial capital is recycled, but ongoing profits leave these shores, often with jobs losses that go with these buyouts.
Germany may have saved some money, but their attidude to work and training is what makes them the industrial powerhouse they are.
We are great at inventing things but shit at marketing and making. With our education system being devalued all of the time and tech jobs being offshored, all we will have left is services and a few niche industries.

Sporky

Boromedic said:

Would you not pay an extra few quid a month to improve services?

No.

Or at least not until the government demonstrate that they can make good use of the vast sums of money they already extort from the population.

stickyfiddle

webrthomson said:

Boromedic said:

 Yes I understand the feelings of those earning over £75k being miffed at a potential tax increase, but damn right they should pay their share, same as all the other hard workers do and if that needs to go up for everyone, so be it

The IFS figures state that the top 10% of earners (on more than 54K) pay 59% of income tax and the bottom 50% of earners pay 9.9% of income tax:

https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/9178
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/05/01/britains-tax-burden-has-climbed-near-highest-level-four-decades/ is also interesting)

It would seem to be a good idea to be wary of overtaxing people that pay the majority of income tax - these are people with highly portable skillsets (finance, IT etc.) if you overtax they will find more suitable arrangements elsewhere, destroying your tax base.

In actual fact since Labour left office the income tax burden on the lower paid has dropped significantly as the personal allowance has nearly doubled from £6,475 in 2010/11 to £11,500 this year 2017/18. This has happened under a (mostly) Tory government, it's interesting that in 13 years of Labour goverments this did not happen?

I can vouch for that. Me and MrsF left 4 years ago. I'm in finance and she's a lawyer. No plans to come back for the foreseeable.

I have no problem paying taxes but I want them invested into sensible long term policies that don't get dicked about by every successive government. We have a massive ponzi scheme in pensions that's going to cause serious problems down the line, so we need to start to fix that now, not just keep trying to make the pot bigger by taxing more and more every year.

As for spending, education is *everything* - noone benefits from a becoming country full of undereducated muppets who can't do critical thinking. Equally, that doesn't mean everyone and his dog needs a degree. There's no shame in being a brilliant plumber/electrician/builder/etc. I'm in favour of @Fretwired's model of NI or an extra 1% on income tax for graduates. But the government like having a massive loan balance on its balance sheet, and it's an easier goalpost to move so it stays how it is, or gets worse.

ToneControl

Boromedic said:

LoFi said:

marantz1300 said:

it's the lack of empathy that is awful, not that they have different opinions to me.

Empathy is defined as "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

Can you understand the feelings of someone on £75k* who might be a bit upset that people claim they should pay more?

* - Who will already be paying nearly £19k a year in tax, who will be entitled to no benefits whilst working, who will probably have private healthcare (therefore taking less out of the system than most people), who may have kids in private school (therefore taking less out of etc...) and who will probably never take as much out in pension than paid in (in absolute terms, never mind real).

you forgot National Insurance
http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php ;

£75k:

Tax	£18,700.00
National Insurance	£5,020.32

if a recent graduate, student loans would take 

Student Loan

£4,860.00

if you put 7% into your pension (not enough btw)

Pension Deductions

£5,250.00

that leaves

2017 Take Home

£43,269.68

which is £166.42 a day cash in hand,
This is £3,605.81 a month, and doesn't sound very "rich" to me when mortgage payments are likely to be £2k for many

Incidentally, many builders and tradesmen charge about £150 a day

Everything is relative

Sounds pretty well off to me to be honest, its nearly twice what most of my colleagues would see after deductions including pension.

 A newly qualified nurse would only be on about £60 a day without the student loan deductions (which is coming soon when they remove the bursary) based on your formula, is that relative? Well it might be if they were looking after you or your family.

Does someone force you to take out a mortgage at 2k a month? No one has a gun to your head do they? That's exactly the point I was making. That's a personal choice to do that, same as it would be if the imaginary nurse buys a property somewhere, on their salary at the same percentage roughly around £940pcm. Thing is no one would lend to the nurse at level, approx 56% of their salary can't see it. Plus the nurse in question could never save for a deposit to get the mortgage either.

No one who earns below that sum of money is going to feel empathy that you are hard pressed in life when their salary is one third of that. They might me grateful that you pay your share in tax. You're acting and sounding quite privileged and expectant, with no comparison for living on a real low income. Buying a house and having "equity" as stickyfiddle puts it are not basic human rights they're something you can have if you're fortunate enough to be able to, it's what you need that matters not what you want.

I'm just illustrating that £75k does not mean someone is "rich", their cash after tax could be similar to a tradesman being paid cash-in-hand

the same point applies to anyone paying tax, running the figures through the calculator gives a better understanding

Average nurse salary = the national average salary, so any issues nurses have are the same issues the average worker has:

mse says, for a £28k salary: 

A mortgage at £126,000 at 3% over 25 years would cost you £598 per month (26% of your pre-tax income).

so, in common with a huge number of other workers, a single nurse could buy a house/flat up to about £150k, incl deposit


"no one is forcing you to get a mortgage"? really?
it's either than or rent, so hardly optional is it? Renting costs more
 

Fretwired

Evilmags said:

"Stop our best companies being sold to foreign buyers" is such a stupid statement it hardly dignifies a response. When the company y is sold the capital is recycled into the UK. It is why we have a more dynamic economy than France amd a more innovative one than Germany. Companies like ARM exist here because their is a much deeper pool of equity capital in the UK than Europe. One  reason the pool is deep is that M&A is relatively easy here. Nobody does tech start ups in France. Their are loads of them in the UK. 

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A large part of Germany's wealth is down to it being part of the Eurozone that effectively makes its exports cheaper than they would have been had they still used the Deutschmark. This has allowed them to generate large surpluses. The Germans also protect their key industries which is why they have an industrial base and we have virtually none. Executives from the big German companies also sit in powerful positions on the various EU regulation boards to ensure they have a say in product regulations - they have tried to ban Dysan products and even put spies into his business. The Germans are ruthless - I know as I worked there for a while.

ToneControl

Jalapeno said:

Evilmags said:

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A part perhaps, though not a large part.  There's a whole cultural aspect - the fact that Herr Engineer is as respected as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor. Their work ethic is better than ours. Germany still has heavy engineering, car building and the like, they still make a lot of things that the rest of the world want to buy (unlike UK PLC).

If you want to fund a country's economy wholly on Capital Market trading don't be surprised if there's a huge welfare state and underclass.

I agree that Germany is helped by a positive respect for engineering as a profession

But it's a common myth that the UK manufactures nothing
https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/manufacturing-processing/how-does-germany-do-it

in fact, the UK is pretty typical, with figures of 10% - 12% reported
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171766_360847.pdf

											% nominal GVA
	UK	Canada	France	Germany	Italy	Japan	US	Brazil	Russia	India	China
Manufacturing	10	12	10	22	16	19	13	13	15	14	32
Services	79	66	79	69	74	73	79	68	60	56	45
Source: World Bank
1. All data are for2012 with the exception of Canada (2008), Japan (2011), US (2011) and China (2010)

Fretwired

Jalapeno said:

Evilmags said:

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A part perhaps, though not a large part.  There's a whole cultural aspect - the fact that Herr Engineer is as respected as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor. Their work ethic is better than ours. Germany still has heavy engineering, car building and the like, they still make a lot of things that the rest of the world want to buy (unlike UK PLC).

If you want to fund a country's economy wholly on Capital Market trading don't be surprised if there's a huge welfare state and underclass.

The UK makes a hell of a lot of stuff, especially in the motor vehicle sector including engines for BMW for the 1,2 and 3 series and cars under the Mini, Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentley and Rolls Royce brand names and vehicles for Nissan. Our motor industry is world leading - the trouble is its all foreign owned. We don' take a strategic view on what is best for the UK, nor do we exploit our R&D properly which is partly down to our banking system that is risk averse. That's why we don't have an Apple or a Google.

capo4th

Sporky said:

Boromedic said:

Would you not pay an extra few quid a month to improve services?

No.

Or at least not until the government demonstrate that they can make good use of the vast sums of money they already extort from the population.

This is the problem ! 

Waste waste and more waste the public sector gravy train being milked by anyone who can clamber aboard.

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability but there is so much more to do. It pains me to say it but we do have a strong stable economy with everyone working (apart from some chavs)

Handing over the reigns to Corbyn and the Labour Party (spend now think about how to pay for it later once Diane has worked it all out) would be a huge backwards step. We need to identify the waste and duplication and rip offs that occur within our schools, councils and hospitals and we would all be much better off. 

quarky

Fretwired said:

The UK makes a hell of a lot of stuff, especially in the motor vehicle sector including engines for BMW for the 1,2 and 3 series and cars under the Mini, Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentley and Rolls Royce brand names and vehicles for Nissan. Our motor industry is world leading - the trouble is its all foreign owned.

I think that is less and less of an issue. We are (I think) the largest foreign investor in the US stock market for example. To me, it is more important to have the jobs here, and I think it is surprised we do have so much here considering the ridiculous land prices due to population density, and our legendary lack of productivity..

capo4th

ToneControl said:

Boromedic said:

LoFi said:

marantz1300 said:

it's the lack of empathy that is awful, not that they have different opinions to me.

Empathy is defined as "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

Can you understand the feelings of someone on £75k* who might be a bit upset that people claim they should pay more?

* - Who will already be paying nearly £19k a year in tax, who will be entitled to no benefits whilst working, who will probably have private healthcare (therefore taking less out of the system than most people), who may have kids in private school (therefore taking less out of etc...) and who will probably never take as much out in pension than paid in (in absolute terms, never mind real).

you forgot National Insurance
http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php ;

£75k:

Tax	£18,700.00
National Insurance	£5,020.32

if a recent graduate, student loans would take 

Student Loan

£4,860.00

if you put 7% into your pension (not enough btw)

Pension Deductions

£5,250.00

that leaves

2017 Take Home

£43,269.68

which is £166.42 a day cash in hand,
This is £3,605.81 a month, and doesn't sound very "rich" to me when mortgage payments are likely to be £2k for many

Incidentally, many builders and tradesmen charge about £150 a day

Everything is relative

Sounds pretty well off to me to be honest, its nearly twice what most of my colleagues would see after deductions including pension.

 A newly qualified nurse would only be on about £60 a day without the student loan deductions (which is coming soon when they remove the bursary) based on your formula, is that relative? Well it might be if they were looking after you or your family.

Does someone force you to take out a mortgage at 2k a month? No one has a gun to your head do they? That's exactly the point I was making. That's a personal choice to do that, same as it would be if the imaginary nurse buys a property somewhere, on their salary at the same percentage roughly around £940pcm. Thing is no one would lend to the nurse at level, approx 56% of their salary can't see it. Plus the nurse in question could never save for a deposit to get the mortgage either.

No one who earns below that sum of money is going to feel empathy that you are hard pressed in life when their salary is one third of that. They might me grateful that you pay your share in tax. You're acting and sounding quite privileged and expectant, with no comparison for living on a real low income. Buying a house and having "equity" as stickyfiddle puts it are not basic human rights they're something you can have if you're fortunate enough to be able to, it's what you need that matters not what you want.

I'm just illustrating that £75k does not mean someone is "rich", their cash after tax could be similar to a tradesman being paid cash-in-hand

the same point applies to anyone paying tax, running the figures through the calculator gives a better understanding

Average nurse salary = the national average salary, so any issues nurses have are the same issues the average worker has:

mse says, for a £28k salary: 

A mortgage at £126,000 at 3% over 25 years would cost you £598 per month (26% of your pre-tax income).

so, in common with a huge number of other workers, a single nurse could buy a house/flat up to about £150k, incl deposit


"no one is forcing you to get a mortgage"? really?
it's either than or rent, so hardly optional is it? Renting costs more
 

Good posts right there also factor in that most builders and tradesman have good accountants and only make £40000 a year. I always pay cash in hand to tradesman as it helps them avoid tax. Least I can do ! 

75k a year and a house and family is not rich in London. I know loads of families who live in 3 bed semis two kids both partners make 30-40k a year each. They are not rich they are getting by.

capo4th

Also the mortgage will 300-500k which is why interest rates are so cheap.

Jalapeno

Fretwired said:

Jalapeno said:

Evilmags said:

A large part of Germany's wealth is due to it not having paid any defence relative to its needs for 60 years. 2%of GDP compunded over 60 years is a lot of money and a huge advantage. 

A part perhaps, though not a large part.  There's a whole cultural aspect - the fact that Herr Engineer is as respected as Herr Doktor or Herr Professor. Their work ethic is better than ours. Germany still has heavy engineering, car building and the like, they still make a lot of things that the rest of the world want to buy (unlike UK PLC).

If you want to fund a country's economy wholly on Capital Market trading don't be surprised if there's a huge welfare state and underclass.

The UK makes a hell of a lot of stuff, especially in the motor vehicle sector including engines for BMW for the 1,2 and 3 series and cars under the Mini, Jaguar, Land Rover, Bentley and Rolls Royce brand names and vehicles for Nissan. Our motor industry is world leading - the trouble is its all foreign owned. We don' take a strategic view on what is best for the UK, nor do we exploit our R&D properly which is partly down to our banking system that is risk averse. That's why we don't have an Apple or a Google.

Agreed. Not 100% stock market/banking fault - the tone is set by Government (of any hue, and they've all shied away from it) - if there were returns available for R&D and exploitation of it, the banks and stock market would invest. Ltd liability ought to mean people don't have to bet their lives on one go, but in practice they do (like Dyson).

Drew_TNBD

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Drew_TNBD

ToneControl said:

Boromedic said:

LoFi said:

marantz1300 said:

it's the lack of empathy that is awful, not that they have different opinions to me.

Empathy is defined as "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

Can you understand the feelings of someone on £75k* who might be a bit upset that people claim they should pay more?

* - Who will already be paying nearly £19k a year in tax, who will be entitled to no benefits whilst working, who will probably have private healthcare (therefore taking less out of the system than most people), who may have kids in private school (therefore taking less out of etc...) and who will probably never take as much out in pension than paid in (in absolute terms, never mind real).

you forgot National Insurance
http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php ;

£75k:

Tax	£18,700.00
National Insurance	£5,020.32

if a recent graduate, student loans would take 

Student Loan

£4,860.00

if you put 7% into your pension (not enough btw)

Pension Deductions

£5,250.00

that leaves

2017 Take Home

£43,269.68

which is £166.42 a day cash in hand,
This is £3,605.81 a month, and doesn't sound very "rich" to me when mortgage payments are likely to be £2k for many

Incidentally, many builders and tradesmen charge about £150 a day

Everything is relative

Sounds pretty well off to me to be honest, its nearly twice what most of my colleagues would see after deductions including pension.

 A newly qualified nurse would only be on about £60 a day without the student loan deductions (which is coming soon when they remove the bursary) based on your formula, is that relative? Well it might be if they were looking after you or your family.

Does someone force you to take out a mortgage at 2k a month? No one has a gun to your head do they? That's exactly the point I was making. That's a personal choice to do that, same as it would be if the imaginary nurse buys a property somewhere, on their salary at the same percentage roughly around £940pcm. Thing is no one would lend to the nurse at level, approx 56% of their salary can't see it. Plus the nurse in question could never save for a deposit to get the mortgage either.

No one who earns below that sum of money is going to feel empathy that you are hard pressed in life when their salary is one third of that. They might me grateful that you pay your share in tax. You're acting and sounding quite privileged and expectant, with no comparison for living on a real low income. Buying a house and having "equity" as stickyfiddle puts it are not basic human rights they're something you can have if you're fortunate enough to be able to, it's what you need that matters not what you want.

I'm just illustrating that £75k does not mean someone is "rich", their cash after tax could be similar to a tradesman being paid cash-in-hand

the same point applies to anyone paying tax, running the figures through the calculator gives a better understanding

Average nurse salary = the national average salary, so any issues nurses have are the same issues the average worker has:

mse says, for a £28k salary: 

A mortgage at £126,000 at 3% over 25 years would cost you £598 per month (26% of your pre-tax income).

so, in common with a huge number of other workers, a single nurse could buy a house/flat up to about £150k, incl deposit


"no one is forcing you to get a mortgage"? really?
it's either than or rent, so hardly optional is it? Renting costs more
 

In London you wouldn't get a studio flat for that much.

capo4th

Drew_TNBD said:

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Chavs are wearing new Nike Air max most people have a nice car on the drive and can go for a meal and a drink .....

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

loads of good things for the UK Labour would simply engage reverse gear and accelerate!

ThePrettyDamned

capo4th said:

Drew_TNBD said:

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Chavs are wearing new Nike Air max most people have a nice car on the drive and can go for a meal and a drink .....

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

loads of good things for the UK Labour would simply engage reverse gear and accelerate!

More doctors but also more strikes among doctors.

Borrowing has increased. Perhaps not the tory's fault but...

Bad referendum that resulted in Dave stepping down despite saying he'd stick it out. Politicians are paid to make tough decisions and ensure the best for our country - so why did any of that happen? Why did we not get a better deal? 

It's not exactly roses if we vote for Theresa May. To be honest, I doubt it really matters who we vote for - they've all proven incompetent. I'm expecting to be absolutely shafted by the EU because none of our leaders are capable of wiping their own arse negotiating anything. 

hungrymark

Fretwired said:

I'd scrap uni fees and add an extra amount on a graduates NI so they pay more tax over time - we need graduates and we need skilled people and we shouldn't saddle them with debt. I got a grant and had no debt. There are ways this and higher education could be funded.

Isn't that pretty much what they do now? It's not 'real' debt because it doesn't contribute towards your credit rating, you only have to pay it back if you earn a certain amount, and it's written off after x years anyway. Just comes out of your pay packet, like NI.