The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

Fretwired

hungrymark said:

Fretwired said:

I'd scrap uni fees and add an extra amount on a graduates NI so they pay more tax over time - we need graduates and we need skilled people and we shouldn't saddle them with debt. I got a grant and had no debt. There are ways this and higher education could be funded.

Isn't that pretty much what they do now? It's not 'real' debt because it doesn't contribute towards your credit rating, you only have to pay it back if you earn a certain amount, and it's written off after x years anyway. Just comes out of your pay packet, like NI. 

It is real debt as my niece has to include hers in her mortgage request which is being processed as I type. She's also in a good job (teacher) so the loans body ensure she is making repayments. There's also evidence it's putting people off going to uni. It's a daft way to fund education - invest in a skilled workforce which can earn a decent wage and tax them fairly.

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

hungrymark said:

Fretwired said:

I'd scrap uni fees and add an extra amount on a graduates NI so they pay more tax over time - we need graduates and we need skilled people and we shouldn't saddle them with debt. I got a grant and had no debt. There are ways this and higher education could be funded.

Isn't that pretty much what they do now? It's not 'real' debt because it doesn't contribute towards your credit rating, you only have to pay it back if you earn a certain amount, and it's written off after x years anyway. Just comes out of your pay packet, like NI. 

It is real debt as my niece has to include hers in her mortgage request which is being processed as I type. She's also in a good job (teacher) so the loans body ensure she is making repayments. There's also evidence it's putting people off going to uni. It's a daft way to fund education - invest in a skilled workforce which can earn a decent wage and tax them fairly.

I agree with that, so we probably need to remove about 50% of UK degree admissions, since most course admissions are not courses providing one of the following:

• Useful vocational skill that is in demand
• non-vocational skill that is in demand (e.g. maths, physics)
• non-vocational skill in low demand, but with very high standards (e.g. history at a top uni - we need experts in everything, we don't also need 10 times as many mediocre graduates in these subjects)

whilst I would love it if we could afford to give free places for us all to do multiple degrees in whatever we find interesting, the pot of cash is limited, and we should look to provide a skilled workforce first, not funding people who are not very good to study a subject that no one has vacancies for

Boromedic

ToneControl said:

Boromedic said:

LoFi said:

marantz1300 said:

it's the lack of empathy that is awful, not that they have different opinions to me.

Empathy is defined as "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another."

Can you understand the feelings of someone on £75k* who might be a bit upset that people claim they should pay more?

* - Who will already be paying nearly £19k a year in tax, who will be entitled to no benefits whilst working, who will probably have private healthcare (therefore taking less out of the system than most people), who may have kids in private school (therefore taking less out of etc...) and who will probably never take as much out in pension than paid in (in absolute terms, never mind real).

you forgot National Insurance
http://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php ;

£75k:

Tax	£18,700.00
National Insurance	£5,020.32

if a recent graduate, student loans would take 

Student Loan

£4,860.00

if you put 7% into your pension (not enough btw)

Pension Deductions

£5,250.00

that leaves

2017 Take Home

£43,269.68

which is £166.42 a day cash in hand,
This is £3,605.81 a month, and doesn't sound very "rich" to me when mortgage payments are likely to be £2k for many

Incidentally, many builders and tradesmen charge about £150 a day

Everything is relative

Sounds pretty well off to me to be honest, its nearly twice what most of my colleagues would see after deductions including pension.

 A newly qualified nurse would only be on about £60 a day without the student loan deductions (which is coming soon when they remove the bursary) based on your formula, is that relative? Well it might be if they were looking after you or your family.

Does someone force you to take out a mortgage at 2k a month? No one has a gun to your head do they? That's exactly the point I was making. That's a personal choice to do that, same as it would be if the imaginary nurse buys a property somewhere, on their salary at the same percentage roughly around £940pcm. Thing is no one would lend to the nurse at level, approx 56% of their salary can't see it. Plus the nurse in question could never save for a deposit to get the mortgage either.

No one who earns below that sum of money is going to feel empathy that you are hard pressed in life when their salary is one third of that. They might me grateful that you pay your share in tax. You're acting and sounding quite privileged and expectant, with no comparison for living on a real low income. Buying a house and having "equity" as stickyfiddle puts it are not basic human rights they're something you can have if you're fortunate enough to be able to, it's what you need that matters not what you want.

I'm just illustrating that £75k does not mean someone is "rich", their cash after tax could be similar to a tradesman being paid cash-in-hand

the same point applies to anyone paying tax, running the figures through the calculator gives a better understanding

Average nurse salary = the national average salary, so any issues nurses have are the same issues the average worker has:

mse says, for a £28k salary: 

A mortgage at £126,000 at 3% over 25 years would cost you £598 per month (26% of your pre-tax income).

so, in common with a huge number of other workers, a single nurse could buy a house/flat up to about £150k, incl deposit


"no one is forcing you to get a mortgage"? really?
it's either than or rent, so hardly optional is it? Renting costs more
 

You've missed my point entirely here and I'm fed up with arguing back and forth with everyone, I don't agree with you and you don't agree with me and that's absolutely fine. Working in the public sector isn't riding a gravy train and 75k is well off in any normal persons book.

Sporky

ToneControl said:

we should look to provide a skilled workforce first

Turning universities into giant job training centres is an awful idea in my view.

Graduates already end up with higher salaries on average than non-graduates, so they already end up paying more tax and thus paying back their tuition costs.

I do agree that enabling universities to stop (and possibly reverse) the growth in registrations is probably good for all concerned, with more non-academic education opportunities for people who'd be happier and better in the vocational training you want. But don't destroy the whole point of universities in the process!

ToneControl

Sporky said:

ToneControl said:

we should look to provide a skilled workforce first

Turning universities into giant job training centres is an awful idea in my view.

Graduates already end up with higher salaries on average than non-graduates, so they already end up paying more tax and thus paying back their tuition costs.

I do agree that enabling universities to stop (and possibly reverse) the growth in registrations is probably good for all concerned, with more non-academic education opportunities for people who'd be happier and better in the vocational training you want. But don't destroy the whole point of universities in the process!

imo most uni students currently are not benefiting from a uni-style education
someone with average intelligence studying in a tertiary institution, looking at subjects at an abstract level does not seem like the best option. A bit like asking "why not teach all kids A level pure maths?" - most will get 15% in the exam, but we can change the pass marks 

also: many grads do not pay back the loan, if their degree subject/uni/result was poor - so effectively we are providing free uni places, but only for the most useless courses - that is surely the opposite outcome to what the country needs?

Drew_TNBD

capo4th said:

Drew_TNBD said:

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Chavs are wearing new Nike Air max most people have a nice car on the drive and can go for a meal and a drink .....

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

loads of good things for the UK Labour would simply engage reverse gear and accelerate!

Yes, but source?

Fretwired

A client of mine (a government funded quango long since abolished) did some research that I was involved with which reimagined the UK education system. Most of the people on the panel were left-wing academics but they had some interesting ideas.

Headline points included:

• Education free for all funded through tax (see below)
• Lifelong education support so people could up-skill/reskill throughout their working life
• Education paths to suit the needs and abilities of students and the workplace
• Scrap A-levels
• Scrap school 6th forms
• More vocational and technical training with meaningful qualifications
  
• Fewer universities
• Reintroduction of polytechnics focused on technology, science and engineering
  

To fund education (and health) NI should be scrapped and replaced with an education and health insurance with is a percentage of salary. The more you earn the more you pay.

People should have the opportunity to go back into education at anytime. This could allow people to do an apprenticeship, gain employment experience and then decide at a later date that they'd like to go to uni and do a degree.

A-levels are pointless exams and should be scrapped. Schools are not the right environment for 16-18 year old's - all 6th forms would be scrapped giving schools more space and improving the teacher/pupil ratio.

At 16 pupils could go to college (the term could be changed but most towns have one) and choose a path that could be an apprenticeship (catering, plumbing etc), technical (engineering, IT, coding), business (foundation in finance, law etc) - for those wanting to go to university there would be a two year university foundation course that could cover a broader range of the subject a student wants to study at uni (or something generic if they unsure what to study) plus skills that they will need once there. These courses would be created by the higher education sector to ensure they meet university entry standards.

Other ideas - colleges should merge to form larger institutions that can work with local employers on delivering courses and training to help young people get the skills to gain employment. The number of universities should be reduced and the polytechnics reinstated. Colleges could be run by polytechnics or universities.

Besides apprenticeships there could be a return to other qualifications that are below degree level, but have a rigour that employers would value - OND/ONC and HND/HNC. These could be in business, science, engineering and IT. They could also form the basis of entry into professional bodies to study for accounting or law qualifications. Many progfessional firms are now favouring taking on trainees at 18 and allowing them to study for their accounting or law exams without needing a degree.

Lifelong learning would mean that people could decide later in life that they might want to change career or acquire a new skill. This is important as we are expected to work longer.

There's loads more - it was submitted to government and put in the bin ... shame as there were some good ideas.

ThePrettyDamned

Fretwired said:

A client of mine (a government funded quango long since abolished) did some research that I was involved with which reimagined the UK education system. Most of the people on the panel were left-wing academics but they had some interesting ideas.

Headline points included:

• Education free for all funded through tax (see below)
• Lifelong education support so people could up-skill/reskill throughout their working life
• Education paths to suit the needs and abilities of students and the workplace
• Scrap A-levels
• Scrap school 6th forms
• More vocational and technical training with meaningful qualifications
  
• Fewer universities
• Reintroduction of polytechnics focused on technology, science and engineering
  

To fund education (and health) NI should be scrapped and replaced with an education and health insurance with is a percentage of salary. The more you earn the more you pay.

People should have the opportunity to go back into education at anytime. This could allow people to do an apprenticeship, gain employment experience and then decide at a later date that they'd like to go to uni and do a degree.

A-levels are pointless exams and should be scrapped. Schools are not the right environment for 16-18 year old's - all 6th forms would be scrapped giving schools more space and improving the teacher/pupil ratio.

At 16 pupils could go to college (the term could be changed but most towns have one) and choose a path that could be an apprenticeship (catering, plumbing etc), technical (engineering, IT, coding), business (foundation in finance, law etc) - for those wanting to go to university there would be a two year university foundation course that could cover a broader range of the subject a student wants to study at uni (or something generic if they unsure what to study) plus skills that they will need once there. These courses would be created by the higher education sector to ensure they meet university entry standards.

Other ideas - colleges should merge to form larger institutions that can work with local employers on delivering courses and training to help young people get the skills to gain employment. The number of universities should be reduced and the polytechnics reinstated. Colleges could be run by polytechnics or universities.

Besides apprenticeships there could be a return to other qualifications that are below degree level, but have a rigour that employers would value - OND/ONC and HND/HNC. These could be in business, science, engineering and IT. They could also form the basis of entry into professional bodies to study for accounting or law qualifications. Many progfessional firms are now favouring taking on trainees at 18 and allowing them to study for their accounting or law exams without needing a degree.

Lifelong learning would mean that people could decide later in life that they might want to change career or acquire a new skill. This is important as we are expected to work longer.

There's loads more - it was submitted to government and put in the bin ... shame as there were some good ideas.

I agree with loads of that, especially retraining. I'm not the only one with a degree in something that has discovered hard research isn't for them... 

I'd be a great accountant but a lot of the training for accountants is for those before degree level - as in, I'm not allowed to apply as I have a degree. 

I think having a workforce that can retrain (obviously not constantly moving up a pay scale) would make for happier and more productive people. It would also diversify skillsets in lower, middle and higher tier jobs - surely a good thing for complex decision making (university primarily teaches weighing up conflicting arguments and evidence for a good conclusion anyway). 

thomasw88

Drew_TNBD said:kids

capo4th said:

Drew_TNBD said:

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Chavs are wearing new Nike Air max most people have a nice car on the drive and can go for a meal and a drink .....

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

loads of good things for the UK Labour would simply engage reverse gear and accelerate!

Yes, but source?

I think it was the daily mail, express, sun, BBC, times and telegraph plus some  research by reading  a leaflet he got through the door from the conservative party.

Heartfeltdawn

capo4th said:

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

Millions of jobs created means nothing without context as to the quality of those jobs.

Booming from a shit level, yes. But that boom is not countrywide at all. 

Deficit down - to levels when Labour were in power (pre-recession). So not something that only a Conservative government could deliver. 

Growing business exports - thanks to the weaker pound, yes. But that weaker pound hurts in other ways. 

School standards - in what way? 

Crime reduced - bollocks. The Crime Survey records a drop to 2016 but this is hopelessly outdated as online and computer based crimes are still mere estimates and not recorded properly. Police recorded crime was up from 2015 to 2016 as per the ONS. Violent crime has also increased. 

More doctors and nurses - but still under the level. 

State welfare - yep, necessary. 

Fretwired

Just announced by Labour .. ;-)

capo4th

Heartfeltdawn said:

capo4th said:

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

Millions of jobs created means nothing without context as to the quality of those jobs.

Booming from a shit level, yes. But that boom is not countrywide at all. 

Deficit down - to levels when Labour were in power (pre-recession). So not something that only a Conservative government could deliver. 

Growing business exports - thanks to the weaker pound, yes. But that weaker pound hurts in other ways. 

School standards - in what way? 

Crime reduced - bollocks. The Crime Survey records a drop to 2016 but this is hopelessly outdated as online and computer based crimes are still mere estimates and not recorded properly. Police recorded crime was up from 2015 to 2016 as per the ONS. Violent crime has also increased. 

More doctors and nurses - but still under the level. 

State welfare - yep, necessary. 

Thanks for clarifying my points did you have any arguments of substance that dispute them? 

Compared to the rest of Europe and the world the U.K. Economy is doing very well thanks to strong and stable leadership. We need to stick to the strong economic plan and continue to move things forward. 

Look what we have seen in the last 24 hours Labour are finished.

Labour MPs are inept and could not organise Christmas in Santas grotto.

Bumbling fools who just tell the masses what they think they need to hear with no substance or plan to support the soundbites. 

Can you imagine Corbyn and Diane Abbott in charge of Brexit negotiations..... 

capo4th

thomasw88 said:

Drew_TNBD said:kids

capo4th said:

Drew_TNBD said:

capo4th said:

The torys have improved lots of things in the last five years or so and added much more accountability

Source ?

Chavs are wearing new Nike Air max most people have a nice car on the drive and can go for a meal and a drink .....

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

loads of good things for the UK Labour would simply engage reverse gear and accelerate!

Yes, but source?

I think it was the daily mail, express, sun, BBC, times and telegraph plus some  research by reading  a leaflet he got through the door from the conservative party.

Common knowledge please enlighten me if you don't agree with any of them ?

Heartfeltdawn

capo4th said:

Thanks for clarifying my points did you have any arguments of substance that dispute them? 

As your points didn't have any, I didn't see the need to provide depth rebutting your soundbites. So there's no real point to any of this. 

Snap

I've just seen the latest Diane Abbott fiasco, its painful, talking about numbers of labour seats, she's woefully inept.

£75k is a good salary. Whether it makes you well off or not is another question. As for being "forced" into having a 2k a month mortgage - quite often its do that or rent, which would cost more probably.

ThePrettyDamned

capo4th said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

capo4th said:

Millions of jobs created some were even in the north.
Fastest growing economy the U.K. has been booming
Deficit down from 10% of GDP to 2% 
more people paying less tax more money in your pocket everyone's tax code changed in April.
Growing business exports up more start ups
school standards have improved although lots of work to do
Crime has reduced
more doctors and nurses 
state welfare handouts capped at only £26000 grand a year poor souls

Millions of jobs created means nothing without context as to the quality of those jobs.

Booming from a shit level, yes. But that boom is not countrywide at all. 

Deficit down - to levels when Labour were in power (pre-recession). So not something that only a Conservative government could deliver. 

Growing business exports - thanks to the weaker pound, yes. But that weaker pound hurts in other ways. 

School standards - in what way? 

Crime reduced - bollocks. The Crime Survey records a drop to 2016 but this is hopelessly outdated as online and computer based crimes are still mere estimates and not recorded properly. Police recorded crime was up from 2015 to 2016 as per the ONS. Violent crime has also increased. 

More doctors and nurses - but still under the level. 

State welfare - yep, necessary. 

Thanks for clarifying my points did you have any arguments of substance that dispute them? 

Compared to the rest of Europe and the world the U.K. Economy is doing very well thanks to strong and stable leadership. We need to stick to the strong economic plan and continue to move things forward. 

Look what we have seen in the last 24 hours Labour are finished.

Labour MPs are inept and could not organise Christmas in Santas grotto.

Bumbling fools who just tell the masses what they think they need to hear with no substance or plan to support the soundbites. 

Can you imagine Corbyn and Diane Abbott in charge of Brexit negotiations..... 

I've got it. 

You're Theresa May!  

I jest. But there is another side to all of this. 

More doctors? Yes. More doctors strikes? Also yes! So something is wrong there. 

I'd be interested to know the crime reduction. I've not seen or heard any evidence that suggests that, not in any meaningful way, and electronic crime is still under reported. 

May be lots more jobs, but a quick look on indeed in my area puts most of them (by a huge margin) at well under average wage, with not-very-many creeping above. Lots of part time and temporary jobs in retail. 

Again, I'd like to see the evidence. No political parties seem very keen to back up a word of anything they say... 

I swear I'm not picking on you by the way. I am actually really enjoying this thread, and I've learnt a lot of different perspectives from it. Something I really like is that we (being all of us) genuinely want the best for the country and thus the best for everyone in it. Unlike our idiot leaders who would pit us against each other by pointing differences, it's great to see that the public really are mostly on the same page, and I wouldn't accuse anyone here of being selfish or looking only to their own interests. 

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

A client of mine (a government funded quango long since abolished) did some research that I was involved with which reimagined the UK education system. Most of the people on the panel were left-wing academics but they had some interesting ideas.

Headline points included:

• Education free for all funded through tax (see below)
• Lifelong education support so people could up-skill/reskill throughout their working life
• Education paths to suit the needs and abilities of students and the workplace
• Scrap A-levels
• Scrap school 6th forms
• More vocational and technical training with meaningful qualifications
  
• Fewer universities
• Reintroduction of polytechnics focused on technology, science and engineering
  

To fund education (and health) NI should be scrapped and replaced with an education and health insurance with is a percentage of salary. The more you earn the more you pay.

People should have the opportunity to go back into education at anytime. This could allow people to do an apprenticeship, gain employment experience and then decide at a later date that they'd like to go to uni and do a degree.

A-levels are pointless exams and should be scrapped. Schools are not the right environment for 16-18 year old's - all 6th forms would be scrapped giving schools more space and improving the teacher/pupil ratio.

At 16 pupils could go to college (the term could be changed but most towns have one) and choose a path that could be an apprenticeship (catering, plumbing etc), technical (engineering, IT, coding), business (foundation in finance, law etc) - for those wanting to go to university there would be a two year university foundation course that could cover a broader range of the subject a student wants to study at uni (or something generic if they unsure what to study) plus skills that they will need once there. These courses would be created by the higher education sector to ensure they meet university entry standards.

Other ideas - colleges should merge to form larger institutions that can work with local employers on delivering courses and training to help young people get the skills to gain employment. The number of universities should be reduced and the polytechnics reinstated. Colleges could be run by polytechnics or universities.

Besides apprenticeships there could be a return to other qualifications that are below degree level, but have a rigour that employers would value - OND/ONC and HND/HNC. These could be in business, science, engineering and IT. They could also form the basis of entry into professional bodies to study for accounting or law qualifications. Many progfessional firms are now favouring taking on trainees at 18 and allowing them to study for their accounting or law exams without needing a degree.

Lifelong learning would mean that people could decide later in life that they might want to change career or acquire a new skill. This is important as we are expected to work longer.

There's loads more - it was submitted to government and put in the bin ... shame as there were some good ideas.

all of which I have been telling people since I worked in Unis 

with the exception of the A level / 6th form points, but they are good points too
Where we live, the state schools don't have 6th forms,
there is a vocational college (for non-Uni aspirants), and a 6th form college in an old grammar school building, which has t a uni feel to it, but still A level subjects of course

I strongly believe that teaching people with average IQ about abstract low-demand subjects is not helping them

Also I feel that adult education should be available and free throughout life
I have been looking now for 5 years for an evening course in history or music, but the only courses available for adults now are beginner's IT, beginner's photography, languages, yoga, zumba, etc - pathetic in a civilised country

I have wondered why mature students aren't allowed in to do A levels alongside the 16-18 years olds
From what I've seen with mature students in Unis, they are a very good example to the younger students

Gassage

Fretwired

Diane Abbott the gift that keeps on giving ... car crash interview

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/05/diane-abbott-suffers-another-disastrous-interview-massively/

Jalapeno

Fretwired said:

Diane Abbott the gift that keeps on giving ... car crash interview

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/05/diane-abbott-suffers-another-disastrous-interview-massively/

She's great !

Hope they keep her on the front line after the election rather than boot her off to the House of Lords, just for the comedy value !