The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

Axe_meister

Heartfeltdawn said:

Axe_meister said:

We can blame the press for the lack of male applicants to become school teachers. I.E. you must be a pedophile if your male and want to teach young children 

If that were the case, it hasn't translated into a drop in male sports coaches despite numerous scandals. So blaming the press for a lack of male teachers is an assertion with zero backing to my mind. 

Just going by what I heard from a number of new recruits at work who had gone through their teaching qualifications and the stigma that was going around at the time.

Garthy

Corbyn's unicorn wish list, and getting the rich to pay for it- it reminds me of Trump telling the yanks what they wanted to hear, and that he'd get someone else to pay for walls and shit....

Fretwired

:-)

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

I'd be interested to know more on this. I heard a teacher on radio 2 the other day who was saying men *shouldn't* get into the profession until male teachers have more protection from false sexual allegations, as well as female teachers being treated equally with regards to them (eg female teacher, male pupil sex = fun, he's lucky, they're dating/eloping, male teach, female student = he's a paedophile, lock him up). 

I've dumbed down a pretty long chat there but it was interesting. He'd been falsely accused and despite the girl coming forward, she faced no charges and he still lost his job, it was on his record and he'd been ostracised by the community as a sex offender. Iirc anyway... 

Drew_TNBD

ThePrettyDamned said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

I'd be interested to know more on this. I heard a teacher on radio 2 the other day who was saying men *shouldn't* get into the profession until male teachers have more protection from false sexual allegations, as well as female teachers being treated equally with regards to them (eg female teacher, male pupil sex = fun, he's lucky, they're dating/eloping, male teach, female student = he's a paedophile, lock him up). 

I've dumbed down a pretty long chat there but it was interesting. He'd been falsely accused and despite the girl coming forward, she faced no charges and he still lost his job, it was on his record and he'd been ostracised by the community as a sex offender. Iirc anyway... 

Nowt new there. It's been happening for decades.

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_TNBD said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

I'd be interested to know more on this. I heard a teacher on radio 2 the other day who was saying men *shouldn't* get into the profession until male teachers have more protection from false sexual allegations, as well as female teachers being treated equally with regards to them (eg female teacher, male pupil sex = fun, he's lucky, they're dating/eloping, male teach, female student = he's a paedophile, lock him up). 

I've dumbed down a pretty long chat there but it was interesting. He'd been falsely accused and despite the girl coming forward, she faced no charges and he still lost his job, it was on his record and he'd been ostracised by the community as a sex offender. Iirc anyway... 

Nowt new there. It's been happening for decades.

I've heard the stories, but I'd never heard a first person account. 

Pretty well put me off - there are £27.5k bursaries available for chemistry graduates to get into teaching and although I don't want to be a teacher, hearing that would be enough to put anyone off... 

Drew_TNBD

ThePrettyDamned said:

Drew_TNBD said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

I'd be interested to know more on this. I heard a teacher on radio 2 the other day who was saying men *shouldn't* get into the profession until male teachers have more protection from false sexual allegations, as well as female teachers being treated equally with regards to them (eg female teacher, male pupil sex = fun, he's lucky, they're dating/eloping, male teach, female student = he's a paedophile, lock him up). 

I've dumbed down a pretty long chat there but it was interesting. He'd been falsely accused and despite the girl coming forward, she faced no charges and he still lost his job, it was on his record and he'd been ostracised by the community as a sex offender. Iirc anyway... 

Nowt new there. It's been happening for decades.

I've heard the stories, but I'd never heard a first person account. 

Pretty well put me off - there are £27.5k bursaries available for chemistry graduates to get into teaching and although I don't want to be a teacher, hearing that would be enough to put anyone off... 

That's another thing.... the entry points.

I'm 32. I have a BA in Sonic Arts (ugh... what a fucking monstrous decision!) and if I wanted to go into teaching (which sometimes I do think would be a good idea) I'd have such a mountain of bullshit to climb. It just puts me reet off.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

It is an interesting paper and made for a fun hour of reading this afternoon in my depressive chasm known as 'Saturday afternoon'. As a counter, have a gander at this one by Lavy:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.397.1546&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Education within secondary and primary levels has been dominated by female teachers and still is. That is a given. Whether that is a problem is harder to clarify and one aspect of the study you linked to that I'd wanted explored more was this idea that female teachers perceived male pupil behaviour as automatically worse than female. One aspect from the conclusion stands out:

" Male students invest less when graded by a female teacher, and female students invest more when graded by a male teacher. These results imply that male students have lower expectations about their chances of success when graded by a female teacher while female students have higher expectations about their chances of success when graded by a male teacher. Interestingly, an analysis of teachers’ grading practices shows that these belief only partially match teachers’ actual behavior. Indeed, teachers are more lenient with students of their own gender. Male students’ choices are in line with the fact that male teachers give them lower grades, but female students’ choices are not consistent with male teachers’ grading practice."

Personally I don't see the data within the study that would allow me to state that implication. Male students perceive lower grades from female teachers yet the male teachers grade them lower... that does suggest some skewed perception on behalf of those male students. A study that attempts to deal with any unconscious bias of educators also needs to address any unconscious or conscious bias of those taking part in the study. For example, having those results broken down by factors such as parental situation (together/single parents/co-parenting etc) would provide some important data. 

So away from stats and studies, I do think it is important that schools have a decent mix when it comes to educational professionals. An all-female teaching establishment would be something to be concerned with. 

One interesting stat from two years ago. At secondary level, the workforce was 38% male, 62% female. When it came to headteaching roles, 36% were women and 64% were men. Now governing bodies will have a major part to play in those appointments. Quite often you will find some older folk on those boards. One wonders if some unconscious bias there is responsible for men being taken out of what I'd call frontline teaching and popped into headteacher roles. 

Heartfeltdawn

ThePrettyDamned said:

I'd be interested to know more on this. I heard a teacher on radio 2 the other day who was saying men *shouldn't* get into the profession until male teachers have more protection from false sexual allegations, as well as female teachers being treated equally with regards to them (eg female teacher, male pupil sex = fun, he's lucky, they're dating/eloping, male teach, female student = he's a paedophile, lock him up). 

I've dumbed down a pretty long chat there but it was interesting. He'd been falsely accused and despite the girl coming forward, she faced no charges and he still lost his job, it was on his record and he'd been ostracised by the community as a sex offender. Iirc anyway... 

Yes there absolutely does need to be better teacher protection irrespective of gender. Unequivocally. 

capo4th

Drew_TNBD said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

- Reverse some of the positive discrimination in the education system that has lead to a dearth of British working class boys going to college and university

- Increase the number of male teachers in primary schools

So no positive discrimination on one hand but how would you get more men in primary schools without positive discrimination?

In the bit you've quoted he does say "reverse some", not "remove all".

I'd like to add tax breaks (for employees and employers) for allowing working from home. Not huge ones, but enough to reduce traffic a bit.

True. But Drew and I have debated long enough to know what he's getting at

Refresh my memory, coz I don't really know what you're getting at! I don't know how you get more male role models in schools without positive discrimination. Maybe positive discrimination can sometimes be a good thing and I need to re-evaluate my perception on it. Or maybe there are alternative methods which are less draconian.

I think the sum point though, is a good one. Research suggests that female teachers unconsciously downgrade boys in their classes because of issues relating to non-cognitive behaviour - ie; it doesn't matter how smart the kid is, if he acts up or is too rowdy he'll get lower grades.

Source: http://cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp133.pdf

Pretty good paper that one. I think you'll find it interesting. The TLDR is that we need more male teachers to offset the cognitive biases of female teachers in order to give our children the best possible chances in education and thus in life.

I don't know how you do that without positive discrimination. We could explore firing teachers who are inadquate and who harm our children's prospects. Or better yet, train them to be aware of their unconscious biases and develop a better checks and balances system.

If you're curious, I feel like my experience at school was one of constantly being judged by teachers - most of them female. I feel like my life was irrevocably changed for the worse because of it. Which is why I care. My personal experience pushes me to want to change this part of our system.

We do need more male teachers in schools boys need role models to learn and develop as young men.

My son attends an all boys private primary school and is extreamly happy. He has a female form tutor who probably takes him for 50% of his lessons. On the plus side he has male teachers for various subjects and interactions.

Head Master
Deputy Headmaster
Muisc teacher / Guiter and Oboe
IT teacher 
Science teacher 
Swimming teacher
Drama teacher
PSHE teacher
PE teachers team of 8 men who all impact on the boys lives and personal development.

15 male steachers who all have a positive role model impact on the 500 pupils. 

We need more active recruitment (positive discrimination) of males into the state system. Boys are more likely to have home lives that require a positive male role model at school e.g. Family break up. My teachers at school were all positive male role models and I remember them to this day. Male teachers are distinctly lacking or maybe the problem is that they re all recruited into the private sector.

I do also think having a female form tutor gives him some balance and nurturing from a female perspective although she is quite hardcore and takes no nonsense.  Schools should have a minimum requirement of male teachers per pupil it's a simple fix and one that should be implemented into the state system via pay and positive discrimination to solve this problem. Teaching can be a great well paid career for men.

ToneControl

Heartfeltdawn said:

Education within secondary and primary levels has been dominated by female teachers and still is. That is a given. Whether that is a problem is harder to clarify and one aspect of the study you linked to that I'd wanted explored more was this idea that female teachers perceived male pupil behaviour as automatically worse than female. One aspect from the conclusion stands out:

" Male students invest less when graded by a female teacher, and female students invest more when graded by a male teacher. These results imply that male students have lower expectations about their chances of success when graded by a female teacher while female students have higher expectations about their chances of success when graded by a male teacher. Interestingly, an analysis of teachers’ grading practices shows that these belief only partially match teachers’ actual behavior. Indeed, teachers are more lenient with students of their own gender. Male students’ choices are in line with the fact that male teachers give them lower grades, but female students’ choices are not consistent with male teachers’ grading practice."

Personally I don't see the data within the study that would allow me to state that implication. Male students perceive lower grades from female teachers yet the male teachers grade them lower... that does suggest some skewed perception on behalf of those male students. A study that attempts to deal with any unconscious bias of educators also needs to address any unconscious or conscious bias of those taking part in the study. For example, having those results broken down by factors such as parental situation (together/single parents/co-parenting etc) would provide some important data. 

So away from stats and studies, I do think it is important that schools have a decent mix when it comes to educational professionals. An all-female teaching establishment would be something to be concerned with. 

One interesting stat from two years ago. At secondary level, the workforce was 38% male, 62% female. When it came to headteaching roles, 36% were women and 64% were men. Now governing bodies will have a major part to play in those appointments. Quite often you will find some older folk on those boards. One wonders if some unconscious bias there is responsible for men being taken out of what I'd call frontline teaching and popped into headteacher roles. 

I think this text is a typo in the paper:
Male students’ choices are in line with the fact that male teachers give them lower grades
I think they meant to type:
Male students’ choices are in line with the fact that female teachers give them lower grades
which would be consistent with the rest of the paper

Drew_TNBD

We should probably take the schools 'more male teachers' discussion to another thread, happy to have the discussion as it's one I find very interesting!

ToneControl

Corbyn wants to charge tax on bonds and derivatives:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39910293

Time to stop worrying about Brexit pushing a few financial sector jobs abroad ?

capo4th

Good old Corbyn and Labour another devisive soundbite policy. 

Does Jeremy not realise how much the city contributes to U.K. GDP and HMRC receipts the man is a first class idiot oh no he would rather nationalise the railways for his union mates.

thomasw88

capo4th said:

Good old Corbyn and Labour another devisive soundbite policy. 

Does Jeremy not realise how much the city contributes to U.K. GDP and HMRC receipts the man is a first class idiot oh no he would rather nationalise the railways for his union mates.

Dude read the fecking manifesto rather than continually spouting absolute bollocks

Drew_TNBD

When I was 20 I thought a Robin Hood tax was a good idea. Now I don't.

Sporky

Drew_TNBD said:

When I was 20 I thought a Robin Hood tax was a good idea. Now I don't.

Not enough Robin Hoods left to tax?

Also there's an obvious loop-hole unless they ban name changes by deed-poll.

Jalapeno

Drew_TNBD said:

<snip>

I'm 32. I have a BA in Sonic Arts (ugh... what a fucking monstrous decision!) and if I wanted to go into teaching (which sometimes I do think would be a good idea) I'd have such a mountain of bullshit to climb. It just puts me reet off.

ISTR you'd have to do a post-grad in teaching for a year, and a CRO check - what else ?

Drew_TNBD

Jalapeno said:

Drew_TNBD said:

<snip>

I'm 32. I have a BA in Sonic Arts (ugh... what a fucking monstrous decision!) and if I wanted to go into teaching (which sometimes I do think would be a good idea) I'd have such a mountain of bullshit to climb. It just puts me reet off.

ISTR you'd have to do a post-grad in teaching for a year, and a CRO check - what else ?

I'm not sure if it's that simple. I did an arts degree, but say I wanted to teach English or Physics or something like that. I'd have to plug the holes in my knowledge as well as retrain.

Anyway, as soon as I got in, you'd have some Emp_Fab style parent trying to get me fired due to political differences!