How Good is Your Technique?

gitapik

Vibetronic said:

gitapik said:

I don't understand what the argument is here. The OP didn't say that the test was a be all and end all. Nor did he say that it's a test of musicality.

It's just not a good way to assess someones technique, particularly if you're charging them for it!

Hah...true dat!

Bridgehouse

Veganic said:

BRISTOL86 said:

I can play that at 260bpm but I can't change from an open chord to a barre chord. 

I'm a long way from a guitar god!

I struggle at 100bpm.
Time to give up (or take up bass).

Taking up bass doesn't help. There's some flippin' fast bits and you need to be articulate to let the notes differentiate - otherwise it becomes low frequency mush.

Old_Swanner

Vibetronic said:

 It's just not a good way to assess someones technique, particularly if you're charging them for it!

If your max speed on this last year was x bpm, but this year it's x+20 bpm would you agree that your technique must have improved?

Vibetronic

Old_Swanner said:

Vibetronic said:

 It's just not a good way to assess someones technique, particularly if you're charging them for it!

If your max speed on this last year was x bpm, but this year it's x+20 bpm would you agree that your technique must have improved?

yes, in that one tiny area - your technical ability to play a very short ascending alternate picking run would have improved. 

That's one very small aspect of overall technique though, and you can't make a sensible assessment/get an overview of someones overall technique from that "test". It's a little bit limited. 

Old_Swanner

Vibetronic said:

yes, in that one tiny area

So there's no crossover from the upgrade in skillset required to improve at my pattern with that required for other patterns?

Vibetronic

Old_Swanner said:

Vibetronic said:

yes, in that one tiny area

So there's no crossover from the upgrade in skillset required to improve at my pattern with that required for other patterns?

not a great deal. It obviously would for other similarly short alternate picked ascending patterns, if that's what you mean by "other patterns"? But otherwise, no, not a lot. It's one small facet of one technique - alternate picking (i.e. it's not going to particularly help with legato, tapping, sweeping, fingerpicking, bending, playing in tune, playing in time to a song in 4/4 etc etc). And it is not a good way to assess someones technique. 

Old_Swanner

Vibetronic said:

Old_Swanner said:

So there's no crossover from the upgrade in skillset required to improve at my pattern with that required for other patterns?

not a great deal.

Let me be more specific.  I'd posit that to improve your max speed on my test, requires improvement in at least one of these areas....

Left hand finger independence, left hand finger strength, left hand finger endurance.
Right hand accuracy, right hand strength, right hand endurance.
Mental side of playing, I call it your "rhythm muscle".

(Which one will likely change as your top speed increases.)

Any time you improve any of these attributes, you reap benefit in countless patterns, including my test.  Hence, you can get better at my test without ever practising it, if your practice on other things is effective enough to yield improvement in the required attributes.

It's the same idea as returning to an old piece you haven't played for years and realising it's easier than it used to be, because your skillset has been upgraded by learning other things well in the intervening period.

Increase in top speed on my test (or any other you'd like to focus on) is proof that something has been strengthened to a new, higher level.  Effective practice lets you understand what, and why.

Overall this isn't so much about how you compare to others, but whether you're getting better!

Vibetronic

Old_Swanner said:

Vibetronic said:

Old_Swanner said:

So there's no crossover from the upgrade in skillset required to improve at my pattern with that required for other patterns?

not a great deal.

Let me be more specific.  I'd posit that to improve your max speed on my test, requires improvement in at least one of these areas....

Left hand finger independence, left hand finger strength, left hand finger endurance.
Right hand accuracy, right hand strength, right hand endurance.
Mental side of playing, I call it your "rhythm muscle".

(Which one will likely change as your top speed increases.)

Any time you improve any of these attributes, you reap benefit in countless patterns, including my test.  Hence, you can get better at my test without ever practising it, if your practice on other things is effective enough to yield improvement in the required attributes.

It's the same idea as returning to an old piece you haven't played for years and realising it's easier than it used to be, because your skillset has been upgraded by learning other things well in the intervening period.

Increase in top speed on my test (or any other you'd like to focus on) is proof that something has been strengthened to a new, higher level.  Effective practice lets you understand what, and why.

Overall this isn't so much about how you compare to others, but whether you're getting better!

I do sort of see what you're trying to say (I think), but I still think this kind of thing is really only going to benefit playing similar patterns (i.e. short ascending alt-picked patterns, which is still what I'm assuming you mean by other patterns/countless patterns, but still haven't specified ?). Finger independence I totally get and grant you that, albeit in this case it's only going one way (i.e. up, in one pattern) but I'm not sure endurance and strength come into this sort of thing a whole lot; I've always considered alternate picking to be more about economy of movement rather than building up stamina and strength. 

I still don't think this is a good way to assess someones technique. If I gave you a sweep-picking exercise I wouldn't expect that to benefit your tapping or bending prowess (for example) at all. It's really only going to benefit your sweeping tech, because that's what it's designed for. I certainly wouldn't be able to assess your all-round technique based on that.

Sorry, I just find the whole thing a bit weird and it feels like you're overthinking it a bit. If it works for you then fair enough

gitapik

As a little sideline, but related is this:

Check out the video at 6:05. He's showing that short Paul Gilbert run. First he plays it slow and then fast:



What's interesting to me is that I tried the same lick and found that it was totally clean when I played it at the slower tempo, but when I speeded up, I'd get this percussive overtone or *knock* (for lack of a better word) every thime I hit the E note. I hadn't noticed it in Pete's playing, so I went back to the video and right away noticed he was getting the same sound when playing fast but not at a slower pace.

Wondering why this happens only when playing fast. It's, of course, during the switch to the next string. Thinking it might be the added percussion of the index finger moving to the E string so quickly. Almost like a slight unintentional hammer on. Or maybe because it's that high E, with the extra overtones you can get from that note.

viz

Vibetronic said:

Old_Swanner said:

Vibetronic said:

yes, in that one tiny area

So there's no crossover from the upgrade in skillset required to improve at my pattern with that required for other patterns?

not a great deal. It obviously would for other similarly short alternate picked ascending patterns, if that's what you mean by "other patterns"? But otherwise, no, not a lot. It's one small facet of one technique - alternate picking (i.e. it's not going to particularly help with legato, tapping, sweeping, fingerpicking, bending, playing in tune, playing in time to a song in 4/4 etc etc). And it is not a good way to assess someones technique. 

I agree with everything you say Vibe.

I do also think this little exercise (and I assume it's one of hundreds, right, Old Swanner?) is a good little finger twister for what it's worth. It took me quite some time to get it up to Old Swanner's speed, and the fact that I can play some other tricky things at the same speed but initially couldn't play this one faster than around 100 BPM tells me that it's more about breadth of vocabulary than this particular twiddle over all others.

That's why I asked you OS what process of improvement you recommend, because I think that's the really interesting bit. Monitoring your speed on a chart and getting this twiddle faster is all good, but the question is, what's next? How do you drive improvement across all the facets of creation, interpretation and playing? Not by achieving 1000bpm on this particular twiddle obviously. And I think that's what Vibe's driving at. 

stratman3142

@gitapik ; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's what Troy Grady refers to as a 'swipe' as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Old_Swanner

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

stratman3142

Old_Swanner said:

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ;; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate. As far as I'm aware even players like Al Di Meola and Paul Gilbert swipe on occasions. It's almost inaudible at speed. The way to find out is to record the lick you play at speed then slow it down and listen carefully. 

viz

stratman3142 said:

Old_Swanner said:

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ;; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate. As far as I'm aware even players like Al Di Meola and Paul Gilbert swipe on occasions. It's almost inaudible at speed. The way to find out is to record the lick you play at speed then slow it down and listen carefully. 

... and hope your audience don't do the same

stratman3142

viz said:

stratman3142 said:

Old_Swanner said:

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ;; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate. As far as I'm aware even players like Al Di Meola and Paul Gilbert swipe on occasions. It's almost inaudible at speed. The way to find out is to record the lick you play at speed then slow it down and listen carefully. 

... and hope your audience don't do the same

Well we've got this far without someone quoting Troy Grady. I suppose someone had to do it.

gitapik

stratman3142 said:

Old_Swanner said:

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ;;; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate. As far as I'm aware even players like Al Di Meola and Paul Gilbert swipe on occasions. It's almost inaudible at speed. The way to find out is to record the lick you play at speed then slow it down and listen carefully. 

Yeah...a little tricky here. Question of how much time you have to practice and, even if it's a lot, just how much of that time you want to dedicate to minutia like that click.

I'm going to give it another look. If there's a simple fix, I'll give it a go. Otherwise...it's time to move on. I can live with that little click so long as it doesn't effect the flow. And Thorn's doing just fine with it there, as well. 

gitapik

stratman3142 said:

viz said:

stratman3142 said:

Old_Swanner said:

stratman3142 said:

@gitapik ;; I get a click on the Paul Gilbert run at speed. I believe it's a swipe as the  pick passes through the string because there's no time to lift the pick over the string.

It also happens when I try to play the lick in this thread at speed.

Good example .. cure it for one, cure it for all.

I'm not sure it is possible to completely eradicate. As far as I'm aware even players like Al Di Meola and Paul Gilbert swipe on occasions. It's almost inaudible at speed. The way to find out is to record the lick you play at speed then slow it down and listen carefully. 

... and hope your audience don't do the same

Well we've got this far without someone quoting Troy Grady. I suppose someone had to do it.

Cool. Thanks. Great clip.

Old_Swanner

viz said:

I do also think this little exercise (and I assume it's one of hundreds, right, Old Swanner?) is a good little finger twister for what it's worth. 

Indeed, just one of many.  Anything and everything can be attacked like this.  Max it out, and then see if you can improve past that glass ceiling over time.

viz said:

That's why I asked you OS what process of improvement you recommend, because I think that's the really interesting bit.

My take on the process of improvement is outlined in the practice flowchart I also blogged recently.

https://www.oldswannerguitartuition.com/single-post/2017/04/24/What-is-Effective-Practice-On-Guitar

In other words, trial and error, but with emphasis on measuring, so you can find out what works, and equally importantly, what doesn't work for you!  Knowing what doesn't work can save thousands of hours of wasted time.

viz

^ thanks

Teetonetal

Speed used to interest me a lot. Once upon a time I could play that pattern at 180 Bpm.. now I'm at 130. 
AM I better guitarist now? Absolutely. Why? Well I think I have more subtlety in my expression and dynamics. My control of string bends has increased dramatically and my ear is definately a lot better.

Learning speed and dexterity has enabled me to play almost anything in the genres I now like, but I was never, ever close to be great at it and ultimately it was a turn off as getting better was very tedious. I recall being told, find out how good you need to be, ad 10% and you are covered. I feel I've been there for years and now I can concentrate on the music.

I can't remember the last time I actually practiced in that controlled way.