Another incident in London ffs!

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

Yes

White man with beard speaks with forked tongue. Infidel!

Funkfingers

ToneControl said:

I don't know yet what the thoughts were behind this incident

Polite suggestion. Until you do know, quit speculating. 

CabbageCat

Strangefan said:

It makes no difference what we call them, is isis daesh, what ever, and regarding calling  it the Muslim community, we can absolutely call them that, for you to demand we change what we call a group of people is not your judgment call. , if a Christian terror group started committing attoecoties I would be asking the exact same questions to the Christian community regardless of where theyre from or what faction, as I would the Muslim community,  if you identify as a particular religion then you're part of that community.  And if you follow a book which preaches hate and lack of respect for any other than  your own religion, then you need to tell us what you're doing about it, yes it may have happened but where? 

Assuming that this guy was not religious (yeah, I know we don't know that, but let's just go with it for the sake of my point) who should be condemning him? I suppose I could - and do - but then I condemn the Manchester and London Bridge chaps as well. I feel like the things I have in common with this guy (white, male, middle-aged, not-religious, driving license etc) are not really the things I am condemning him for (murderer, doesn't like Islam) so my voice has no more weight than anyone else's.

If I start piping up as some sort of special representative of white, non-religious men as if my opinion has special weight then it draws a link between me and the killing. I don't want that link to be there.

Drew_TNBD

I condemn CabbageCat to a lifetime of chocolate and blowjobs!!

Strangefan

Drew_TNBD said:

I condemn CabbageCat to a lifetime of chocolate and blowjobs!!

Is that the white man version of the 12 virgins when we get to heaven? 

TheBlueWolf

Strangefan said:

Drew_TNBD said:

I condemn CabbageCat to a lifetime of chocolate and blowjobs!!

Is that the white man version of the 12 virgins when we get to heaven? 

Nah, that'll be two pints and a packet of crisps

Funkfingers

ToneControl

Funkfingers said:

ToneControl said:

I don't know yet what the thoughts were behind this incident

Polite suggestion. Until you do know, quit speculating. 

why?
it's in the news today, reported as a terror attack. THAT will have consequences, regardless of what his motives were

Snap

There is (well it appears to me) a confusion between religion, race and community in here, and also in the wider public.

Muslim does not describe a race: it describes a follower of Islam. In the same way, Christian does not describe a "white" person either. There is a tendency to label everybody who looks Asian as Muslim, which is not the case at all.

So, as a white person, I should not feel compelled to apologise, or state outrage for this nutter's actions. He;s not a religious extremist, following a jihad or fatwa: he is prejudiced ignoramus psychopath, intent on killing Muslims.

In the same way, Asian people should not be expected to condemn Daesh. Whether Muslims should is debatable as well.

Where British Muslims do have a role is in helping wipe out homegrown extremism. Their role in this is unique in that they will have a more intimate view of how and why the extremism is being propagated. They will have a better understanding of where the extreme preachers are holding their teachings, well a better view than someone from outside of their communities, for sure. BY the same logic, if there were such a thing as Hassidic extremists, then you would be reasonable to expect members of a Jewish social group to understand how to root it out, than persons not part of that community.

If you follow a faith where one group of followers believe that the script advocates killing, and another part of that faith say it doesn't, then who has the best chance of dissuading the wannabe killers? Surely it is the better informed (as in members of the same faith and community).

It is also fair to say that Muslim communities tend to be quite insular and self contained. They are tight knit. This is fertile ground for extremism to grow and develop. It stems from a sense of isolation,intolerance and an almost persecution.

IMO, the answer to halting the rise of homegrown Islamic killers is greater integration of communities. This leads to understanding and tolerance. Big task though. In the Northwest, and W Yorkshire, IMO the muslim communities seem less integrated than ever. The repsonsibility for that lies everywhere, not just with one group of people

Funkfingers

ToneControl said:

why? it's in the news today

Oh, boy.

crunchman

Snap said:

There is (well it appears to me) a confusion between religion, race and community in here, and also in the wider public.

Muslim does not describe a race: it describes a follower of Islam. In the same way, Christian does not describe a "white" person either. There is a tendency to label everybody who looks Asian as Muslim, which is not the case at all.

Very true.

It should be ok to criticise Islam (or any other belief) as a belief without being accused of being racist.

Anyone remember the shoe bomber?  He's a middle aged white man.

Rocker

flyingv said:

Happened near mosque, where there were lots of 'worshipers' outside? 

Wondering why you put single quotes around the word worshipers. They are worshipers full stop. You don't refer to fans of a rock band as 'fans'. 

And I condemn the outrage in London this morning. No cause justifies such actions.

Snap

crunchman said:

Snap said:

There is (well it appears to me) a confusion between religion, race and community in here, and also in the wider public.

Muslim does not describe a race: it describes a follower of Islam. In the same way, Christian does not describe a "white" person either. There is a tendency to label everybody who looks Asian as Muslim, which is not the case at all.

Very true.

It should be ok to criticise Islam (or any other belief) as a belief without being accused of being racist.

Anyone remember the shoe bomber?  He's a middle aged white man.

It should, but its not even Islam as a whole: its an extremist variant of it. They, daesh, are, after all, killing multitudes of Muslims who don't follow their "flavour" of Islam, if you will. They've killed many times more people in Syria, Iraq than in the "west".

Sambostar

Bridgehouse

Is it the heat? Is that why this thread has descended into chaos?

Ravenous

Bridgehouse said:

Is it the heat? Is that why this thread has descended into chaos?

I thought it was National "I must post last" Week...

Fretwired

The accused is Welsh .. anyone seen the Emperor?

Fretwired

Have a bite to eat at the Hitler Cross restaurant ... on the right hand side of the high street ...

CabbageCat

crunchman said:

It should be ok to criticise Islam (or any other belief) as a belief without being accused of being racist.

I agree, but I haven't really noticed anyone does that. "Intolerant", maybe, or even "bigotted" if certain argument are aimed at the religion's followed and not the religions themselves, but not "racist".

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

The accused is Welsh .. anyone seen the Emperor?

The only thing he'd crash into is a Chinese takeaway if his order was late.