EL34 or. 6L6 better suited to my needs ?

Telejester

Would 6L6 be flexible enough to use for 80s Ratt driven tones which are from super lead plexis , i know it wont be exact, but could 6L6 driven hard get anywhere close, bear in mind those ratt tones are full of chewy mids ?

ThePrettyDamned

Telejester said:

Would 6L6 be flexible enough to use for 80s Ratt driven tones which are from super lead plexis , i know it wont be exact, but could 6L6 driven hard get anywhere close, bear in mind those ratt tones are full of chewy mids ?

Check out soldano or a peavey 6505. 

Thick, roaring rhythm drive. 

You might not get those sparkly fender cleans, but the Peavey certainly has a decent clean channel. 

Telejester

I watched a youtube vid where a guy demonstrated el34s and 6L6s using a carvin v3 head. The cleans for both tube types were fine, when he used drive with the el34s it was a sound i recognised right away, with the 6L6s it was a sound id have been adjusting something to make it sound fuller.Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

With a Blackstar there's always a risk of overcompressed mush. The HT-5 has diode hard-limiting on the input to protect the first gain stage (which is an IC, not a valve - in fact the valve is much later in the circuit), so if you hit it with too high a signal level that will kick in and it will sound more like stacking distortion pedals. 

This is probably the single most useful thing that I have read on this board since I registered. Thank you, ICBM.


@Telejester How loud do you require the amplifier to be? There might be a suitable compromise option in the form of the 6V6 output valve - as found in small Fender amplifiers.

ToneControl

6L6 I think

if you can, try a JTM45 running KT66s as well

Telejester

I think for doing jeff healey or srv dirty cleans the 6L6 will absolutely kill, im positive of this. However, if I fancy playing wanted man by ratt, my concern is that the huge chewy overdriven rhythm section will sound lightweight. The pain the arse is that i live in county down so no victory dealers and 6L6 clips of the v40 are pretty scarce.

simonk

You're making a good case for buying a Kemper here.

Telejester

Now't ever straight forward eh 

octatonic

I make these sort of decisions based on what gear the bass player is using.
6L6's do have more bass but if your bassist has a lot of high mid then it gets crowded.

ecc83

"The HT-5 has diode hard-limiting on the input to protect the first gain stage (which is an IC, not a valve - in fact the valve is much later in the circuit"

 Ahem! The input protection is back to back 12V Zeners IC. You would need an rms input signal of over 8 volts to turn those on. Hard pressed to get that out of any guitar I know of or most pedals? And even if you did the front end IC would now be driven rail to rail and produce square waves.  The valve is not 'much' further down the signal chain, it is the next active device.  Other ICs have rail to rail biased diode protection (standard in quality design!) since valves can produce very large voltages  but again 15 volts! That means an rms capability of over 10V  and that is well above many Audio Interface I/O rating (+20dBV) .

Yes, the VERY early Fives had a 'farting out' problem and this was fixed by a simple mod (one resistor, top of PCB but AFTER IC and 2 valve stages!) However, the problem only showed with V high output guitars, very hard string hits and mains at top tolerance.

Sadly I no longer have access to the amps and a scope etc to check all these things!

Re the EL34/6L6 debacle? I often wonder if the lower gm of the L6 which causes the PI to work harder for the same level, is not AS MUCH a factor as the valves themselves?

Meant to say ('er indoors came in) Few common cathode triode stages are linear past about 3V rms input so the ICs have WAY more headroom than the valves!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

"The HT-5 has diode hard-limiting on the input to protect the first gain stage (which is an IC, not a valve - in fact the valve is much later in the circuit"

 Ahem! The input protection is back to back 12V Zeners IC. You would need an rms input signal of over 8 volts to turn those on. Hard pressed to get that out of any guitar I know of or most pedals? And even if you did the front end IC would now be driven rail to rail and produce square waves.  The valve is not 'much' further down the signal chain, it is the next active device.

Not according to the schematic… there are two IC gain stages before the valve, and the diode limiting feedback loop on one of them if you're using the dirty channel. Perhaps' much' is the wrong word , but it's not anything like a simple input buffer followed by the valve.

I take your point about the Zeners being 12V - but there is *something* in these amps which makes them sound oddly harsh, muddy and overcompressed when you push them hard with a pedal. Maybe it's not the diodes though.

Danny1969

The trick with the HT is to boost in the loop, makes a huge difference. I use a GT10 to boost mine, wouldn't gig the amp without doing so 

ecc83

Ah! The OD path. There are actually THREE IC stages before the valve (but one is a buffer so 'in' is 'out') . I was referring to the clean path which is just the first, single IC stage. As to the diode feedback compressor, your own investigations IC have shown that it produces way more signal than the valve can handle before it starts to work. (the first triode has a very high gain) .

You have mentioned your dislike of the OD sound before (once or twice!) but that does not seem the general view of the amps. How many samples have you checked? There are several guys at B's play testing  amps all the time. Different genres and likes and dislikes. It is odd that you have found this problem but they, nor anyone else have not?

But, OD sound will always be very subjective. My son did not like it on the HT-5 (early Mk1) and is not OVERLY fond of that in his HT-20 but he loves that with a mild 'crunch' (into a Greenback) for jazz. But then for rock he is really stuck wanting a window shattering AC30...Ain't gonna happen!

6L6Ls et al? Just checked. The 34 has about twice the gm of the 6L6. Comments welcome.

Dave.

ecc83

Danny1969 said:

The trick with the HT is to boost in the loop, makes a huge difference. I use a GT10 to boost mine, wouldn't gig the amp without doing so 

And! That ^ is a 'semi official' mod! (see me in the FX section) Other things you can try* with an HT-20 is a swap to 6L6 (should re-bias but be ok for a quick try) Even 6V6 but that DOES need a re-bias.  Of course the OPT loading will not be optimum for either but, part of the fun?!!

The amp was built to hit a fairly low price point. Decent sound (by many) but without compromising reliability. YCPAOTPAOTT.

*Again, only 'SEMI' official!

There is a DEFINITELY unofficial mod that I have done to ours specifically because son used it for recording. PM me if you want details and include an email addy.

Dave.

Bucket

ICBM said:

When you say turning up the drive control on the pedal makes things sound bad, do you also turn the level down? The HT-5 has diode hard-limiting on the input to protect the first gain stage (which is an IC, not a valve - in fact the valve is much later in the circuit), so if you hit it with too high a signal level that will kick in and it will sound more like stacking distortion pedals.

This is the exact issue I had with my HT40. I asked about it on here but I don't think I was able to articulate it well enough so I'm not sure this idea came up - but I definitely had that problem. It didn't really like me stacking two overdrives into the clean channel, and it HATED my fuzzes.

Danny1969

I gigged on Friday with the normal GT10 in the loop and an overdrive in the front, that works really well

shaunm

Fender Supersonic 60? Loads of bottom end, takes pedals well. 

Telejester

A stock ht20 sounds like pish, the rocket speaker is an abomination, stick a greenback in it and things get a lot better,  stick a tubescreamer out front and the mud is done away with, i use my ht20 in the garage and its just fine. The original achilles heel is an atrocious speaker.

Danny1969

All the HT20s  I've seen have been heads so I'm not familiar with the speaker 

ICBM

ecc83 said:

Ah! The OD path. There are actually THREE IC stages before the valve (but one is a buffer so 'in' is 'out') . I was referring to the clean path which is just the first, single IC stage. As to the diode feedback compressor, your own investigations IC have shown that it produces way more signal than the valve can handle before it starts to work. (the first triode has a very high gain) .

Yes, but if you're slamming the amp with a much higher than normal signal level it might be a bit different - I didn't when I tested it, since that's something I never do. I have heard a lot of people make the same complaint about them not responding well to pedals though. (See Bucket above, among others.) I may be wrong about the exact mechanism but there is definitely something in the way the amp reacts to pedals which is quite different from a traditional valve amp.

ecc83 said:

You have mentioned your dislike of the OD sound before (once or twice!) but that does not seem the general view of the amps. How many samples have you checked? There are several guys at B's play testing  amps all the time. Different genres and likes and dislikes. It is odd that you have found this problem but they, nor anyone else have not?

Every Blackstar of every model that's ever come through the shop . I just don't like the voicing of the overdrive channel - it's too dark, muddy and compressed for me regardless of the model/series.

We've said this before but I actually think Blackstar know exactly what they're doing since they all sound broadly the same - it's just a voicing I personally don't like - and I know I'm not alone. On the other hand some people seem to like Cornford Harlequins too! Which to me sound far worse than any Blackstar...

One thing I do find odd is how the ISF works - to me, it's backwards. What Blackstar call the 'British' and 'American' sounds are the wrong way round. This doesn't give me any confidence that the designers even listen to amps the way I do - it's a bit like that blue/white dress thing, I just can't hear it the way they clearly do.