At what point is it ok....

Vibetronic

loads of great points from @octatonic ;

You played at those gasfests years ago, didn't you? (if I remember right - it was years ago, but I'm 99% sure I remember meeting you!) So you can play, and you can play in front of people. You're just being very hard on yourself. It's tough being a carer, and that will take a lot out of you. My mum has had MS for 30+ years, and dad is basically her full-time carer with me and my sister helping out, so I have some idea of what it's like - not easy. I would try and get into the mindset where playing guitar is a break from that and a fun thing to do, rather than another obstacle to overcome. Again, it's hard getting time to practice in your situation, but just try and enjoy the time playing. You'll be your harshest critic and it honestly won't be as bad as you think it is. Playing in bands needs different skills i.e. playing at volume, reducing noise etc., and takes time to get used to after playing at home; but you can practice that with the right help. A who cares if you got kicked out of a band? It's all good experience, and you'll be more prepared next time. Any time playing is a positive thing. Playing guitar isn't easy to start with, and it can take a while before you think you sound good yourself, but you can get there. I don't consider myself a natural musician at all but I work very hard at it so I sound half-decent. You'll get there mate! Don't know where you're based, but if you're anywhere near me I'm more than happy to meet up and jam/run through some stuff 

Sassafras

If you've got any sense you're probably your own worst critic. In my experience it's only delusional egomaniacs who think they're God's gift.
I think I'm a crap player but a lot of people think otherwise.
You're probably a lot better than you think you are, although having lessons certainly won't hurt.

mellowsun

Sometimes there can be a conflict between being a good player and enjoying playing.

Around the age of 20 I got to a semi-pro level of playing through hours of practice, having lessons and going to the Guitar Institute. I did a few studio session gigs.

But I just wasn't enjoying it - I wasn't in to playing changes over tunes I didn't like, I wanted to play fast but when I got there, it turned out not to be what I wanted. And ultimately, I wasn't as good as I wanted to be, or as good as I really needed to be to 'make it', and I wasn't prepared to carry on down the path I was on to get there.

I stopped playing for years, and then picked up the acoustic and wrote some songs with my brother and started enjoying playing again. Now, every bit of learning I do is a means to a specific end.

So as a first step, decide what's important to you. Learn enough theory and technique to play what inspires you. Spend as much time listening as playing.

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

MtB said:

The issue for me is there's soooooooo much to learn, that in the end learning just becomes haphazard.

I've said this many times but I will say it again, if folks put in 10% of the time they spend talking about gear then they'd be much, much better musicians.

It's hard to secretly bang out 10 mins of drum practice at work though!

TheOtherDennis

Thanks for all the help and advice, and especially the offers of jam partners. If you were closer, I'd definitely take you up on it.

I guess I just need to do two things. First, practice a little more methodically, rather than the random mess I currently use. And second, don't give in to the doldrums whenever they strike.

Cheers.

skunkwerx

Its not a case of ever needing to assess whether you believe you are shit or good. 

Only ever assess your enjoyment of what youre doing. 

If you enjoy it, you will get better over time regardless. But definately a structured and well planned learning/practice route will aid you better than just playing and playing off your own back! 

I'm also shit! I've been playing for over 10 years and can manage about 10 full songs, no fast solos and still can't manage barre chords very well haha.. 

So what I did was identify what I believe would make me better. So, I need to learn the names of the bloody notes for starters!! 

Basic theory would enable me to create my own stuff easier too, and learning all the chords in their respective keys to boot etc. 

But, I'm lazy! So I've identified what I can do to not be lazy... its hard bloody work.. sometimes I don't enjoy hard work, and before i know it I'm back just playing along to my same old songs for weeks. A vicious circle. 

But, sometimes hard boring work just needs to be done, and I should remember that this will get me to my ultimate long term goal of playing better. 

Basically, I feel you man! 

steer

I spent a year or so tinkering around learning Bass. After that, playing the guitar was exciting again. 

bobliefeld

I got to an alright level of playing fairly quickly and then stayed at roughly the same level for 10+ years.  Once I got a serious job and kids my playing took a major dive.

I tell ya what worked for me, and it's funny..  The computer game "Rocksmith".  You plug a guitar into your computer and play along with some famous songs.  There's a lot of songs on that game that I don't like and would never consider playing normally but it's part of the game, you have to play them.   Playing a wide range of stuff and having to play it properly and accurately helped me loads.

I played it pretty solidly for a few months, not touched it in a long time now but it gave me a real push.

adamm82

TheOtherDennis said:

...to admit that no matter how you practice, you're just rubbish, really, and always will be?

I've supposedly been playing for 17 years.

I sound like I've been playing for about 17 days.

I started by putting in a shitload of practice and progressed pretty bloody rapidly, but then a combination of heavy work and getting distracted by making and modding meant that the practice tailed off for a good few years. Then I got into a band and practiced a lot more again, for about a year. But then the band sacked me, partly for not being up to scratch on stage (I was so terrified of making mistakes, I just stood there, but not in a dead-cool-John-Entwistle way) and partly cos the other guitarist wanted all the cred for himself (they never replaced me). So I tried and failed to join various other bands, as a guitarist and as a bassist.

During all this time, the practice would come and go as needed, but inbetween being needed, it fell off a cliff, because I felt that I had nothing to practice for.

Now, I have a target - a singaround night that I'd like to do because it's very forgiving, and very inclusive and I don't have to hold the audience entirely to myself, mainly because in truth they're just waiting for their turn.

But despite practicing a lot more than I have in ages, I still think I'm pants. No, I know I'm pants, I can hear it when I try to sing and play, I have no great voice and even the dog leaves the room when I try! Finding time to practice should be easy, but my domestic situation (trying to fit everything around work and caring for a severely disabled wife and running the house and all the other stuff life throws up when it feels like it) mean that energy and motivation can often be low, and I'd sometimes rather just sit there and dream about being better, rather than doing something about it.

I'm now like a kid learning for the first time - I'm in that rut where I can tell I'm not making progress because I don't practice enough, but I don't practice enough because I'm not making progress. I put another thread up about playing and singing, but even after giving it more practice, it's just not clicking. I sound awful.

So, in short, is it ok to take the easy way out and admit that I'm frankly just crap, or is it that I'm kidding myself and what with everything else, I'm really just knackered and need to find some other way of getting my mojo back?

Apologies for the rant, but sometimes one has to howl at the moon occasionally.

I am pretty crap. I started when I was 16/17 had some breaks here and there and now I am 35. I am still crap.

I don't have as much time as I would like to practice but this is life. I am also all over the place so will finally take some lessons I think. 
Youtube and other things have been helpful but there is too much info out there.

I actually realised the other day there are not that many songs I know all the way through. my licks still sound like pentatonic scale nonsense. Annoyingly I learnt a new one the other night and it took about 15 mins to get it down. If I could only do this more often I'd have an arsenal of them. 

I play the same stuff everytime and when I end up playing the Sweet Child riff I know it's time to put the guitar down. And the other warning sign is when I try to play my horrendous version of eruption.

However to normal folks I seem pretty good. 

sunshinewelly

my mantra is sod how good everyone else is. i play at home and play to enjoy myself. some days i sound good - some days i sound crap - as long as i enjoy myself then thats the key

Bridgehouse

adamm82 said

However to normal folks I seem pretty good. 

And this is very much worth always bearing in mind.

A good friend of mine was round recently with his family, and his youngest daughter has just started taking lessons. Full of enthusiasm.

He asked me if I'd show her a few guitars and stuff, which I gladly did. I asked her what she was learning and she showed me some simple songs which were just basic open chords.

She got stuck on F, as you do when starting out, and both their jaws literally dropped when I played a barred F with no rattles or squeaks. 

Chris777

@Alnico is there a bigger image of the one you posted please?, I'm struggling to see the notes on my screen, I'd like to print it off, this will help me a lot thank you, Chris.

Alnico

Chris777 said:

@Alnico is there a bigger image of the one you posted please?, I'm struggling to see the notes on my screen, I'd like to print it off, this will help me a lot thank you, Chris.

Sure.

Pm me your email and I'll pop it over as a jpeg. 
You can enlarge and do what you like with it then.
Mine is enlarged, printed out and stuck on my fridge that sits in my eyeline all day. Subliminally I absorb it like that even when I'm not practicing. If you work at a desk you can do this too and I find it really helps.

EDIT : If you click that image it should take you to my imgur page and you should be able to download it from there.
Right click and 'save image as'....

TheOtherDennis

bobliefeld said:

I got to an alright level of playing fairly quickly and then stayed at roughly the same level for 10+ years.  Once I got a serious job and kids my playing took a major dive.

I tell ya what worked for me, and it's funny..  The computer game "Rocksmith".  You plug a guitar into your computer and play along with some famous songs.  There's a lot of songs on that game that I don't like and would never consider playing normally but it's part of the game, you have to play them.   Playing a wide range of stuff and having to play it properly and accurately helped me loads.

I played it pretty solidly for a few months, not touched it in a long time now but it gave me a real push.

What got me started originally was a partwork called Play Guitar. I'd been toying with the idea for years before then, but I had absolutely no desire whatever to learn Shenandoah or My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean. Just no.

Then I saw an ad full of clips of people playing air guitar in various situations that said "Want to learn how to do it for real? Then Play Guitar." And I was hooked.

That had loads of songs in it that I wouldn't have even attempted to learn, never mind a bunch that I didn't even know.

I also bought Rocksmith version one for the PS, but the lag drove me nuts - I'd hit the right note bang on but the game would think I was late. Then I got the next version for the Mac, and it was even worse.

The point I'm making is that you're right, playing something that improves you, even if you don't 'like' it is very good for improving your knowledge and ability. If I could find a way to make Rocksmith work properly (I found that when it worked, I learned to play something well enough to progress, then promptly forgot what it was that I'd 'learned') I'd still be at it now.

Vinylfan

This has been a really interesting thread, particularly the ideas about things to practice.  I'm pretty new to guitar - in fact its the first instrument that I've tried to learn and I'm in my late 40s.  The whole journey so far has been really enjoyable overall, but undoubtedly full of frustrations as well.  But as has been said a couple of times, when you can finally do the thing that you've been trying to do (simple chords in my case) then the sense of achievement is massive.  I had always dismissed learning an instrument as I didn't want to learn music - too many wasted music lessons at school - so the sense of achievement for me is a real bonus.

My guitar sits in the same room as the main TV and often times I'll be watching TV and actually be thinking about playing guitar (or playing badly in my case), but playing nonetheless.  From my perspective, if I can keep that level of motivation up then it will see me through the frustrating parts.

I really liked the exercises that @Alnico posted and have been trying this one today:
On the bottom E string, play
Fret 1
Fret 2
Fret 3
Fret 4

Then move up to the 5th A string and do the same
Then the 4th D string
Then the 3rd G string
Then the 2nd B string
Then the top E string

Quick question re this exercise, I presume you leave your fingers on the strings as you move from 1st to 2nd etc so that at the end of each fret all 4 fingers are down?

Thanks all.

Rabs

For those who may be interested...  A cool scale method is three note per string scales..  It makes it a bit easier..  Well for me anyway..  This is the thing with guitar, theres more than one way to do the same or very similar thing.. You need to find what works for you (which I guess could be said for a lot of things in life).

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Scales-Tricks-Three-Note-Per-String-Scales.aspx

https://www.guitarmasterclass.net/guitar_forum/index.php?showtopic=16647

Alnico

Vinylfan said:

This has been a really interesting thread, particularly the ideas about things to practice.  I'm pretty new to guitar - in fact its the first instrument that I've tried to learn and I'm in my late 40s.  The whole journey so far has been really enjoyable overall, but undoubtedly full of frustrations as well.  But as has been said a couple of times, when you can finally do the thing that you've been trying to do (simple chords in my case) then the sense of achievement is massive.  I had always dismissed learning an instrument as I didn't want to learn music - too many wasted music lessons at school - so the sense of achievement for me is a real bonus.

My guitar sits in the same room as the main TV and often times I'll be watching TV and actually be thinking about playing guitar (or playing badly in my case), but playing nonetheless.  From my perspective, if I can keep that level of motivation up then it will see me through the frustrating parts.

I really liked the exercises that @Alnico posted and have been trying this one today:
On the bottom E string, play
Fret 1
Fret 2
Fret 3
Fret 4

Then move up to the 5th A string and do the same
Then the 4th D string
Then the 3rd G string
Then the 2nd B string
Then the top E string

Quick question re this exercise, I presume you leave your fingers on the strings as you move from 1st to 2nd etc so that at the end of each fret all 4 fingers are down?

Thanks all.

You can leave your fingers in place but I roll mine so that as my middle finger touches down on fret 2 (Let's say) I've lifted my index finger back up. I personally find that rolling action helps but you can try it both ways. The important thing is that you dedicate each finger to the fret it covers and don't deviate from that so to start with it's Fret 1, Finger 1, Fret 2, Finger 2 etc.
The rolling fingers action actually really helps me coming back down that run which to me is harder than going up.
If you're going to do this plugged in, keep the volume low...........it sounds terrible but the actions of the fingers are great exercise and it gets you used to using all 4 fingers in a dedicated / assigned way.

Really glad you like it.
I nicked it from Steve Vai.


HERE is the rest of his 30-hour workout if you're interested.
The bit i copied goes into more detail where he varies the pattern. It's the first exercise and it's in TAB so it's easy to follow.

Enjoy.

Philly_Q

I read the first three lines of the opening post and thought "hey, you're me!" (except I've been playing 37 years and sound like I've been playing, hmmm... a week).

Then I read the rest of the post and... you've been in a band, you've had a go, you're brave enough to try it again.  Singing even.  You practice, even though there are other demands on your time.  You're miles ahead of me.  Don't be too hard on yourself.

octatonic said:

Can you harmonise the major scale?
Do you know the pentatonic minor in 5 positions?
Can you play it in a variety of keys?
Do you know the major scale and modes in 5 positions?
Can you play those in a variety of keys?

Funnily enough, I can do most of those things.  I don't know what harmonising the major scale means (although I'm sure I've read about it and forgotten) and I don't really know modes, although I know they use the same "shapes" as the major scale.  But I certainly know the others.

Problem is, I don't know any songs.  I have no idea how to play music with other people.  I think I'd rather do those things than know theory and technique.  Which isn't at all to say there's no point in learning theory and technique, it would be great to do those too.

But to go back to the original question... I don't think it needs to be OK or not OK to admit you're rubbish at guitar.  That makes it sound like admitting to something terrible.  To repeat what's already been said, playing music is supposed to be fun, it really shouldn't matter if you're brilliant or rubbish.  I know it's not fun if you can't achieve what you want to achieve, but perhaps we have to find a mindset where we can put in the hard work which makes us better, but in a way which is actually enjoyable.

Oh fuck it, I don't know what I'm trying to say.

octatonic

Philly_Q said:

Problem is, I don't know any songs.  I have no idea how to play music with other people.  I think I'd rather do those things than know theory and technique.  Which isn't at all to say there's no point in learning theory and technique, it would be great to do those too.

Ok, well learning songs is something I reckon you can do.
Every guitarist should know a lot of songs- imho it is more important to know how to play "Knocking on heavens door" than it is to understand what a ii V i is.

I created a learn a song a day thread a while back to help get people started.
See if it gets you started: 
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/85579/the-inaugural-learn-a-song-a-day-for-a-month-challenge/p1

Philly_Q

octatonic said:

I created a learn a song a day thread a whole back to help get people started.
See if it gets you started: 
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/85579/the-inaugural-learn-a-song-a-day-for-a-month-challenge/p1

I remember that thread.  I found it quite inspiring, you made some great suggestions.

Did I actually try to learn anything?  I'm afraid not.  Carried on not managing to find the time, as usual... but maybe one day.