At what point is it ok....

jellyroll

octatonic said:

Ok, well learning songs is something I reckon you can do.
Every guitarist should know a lot of songs- imho it is more important to know how to play "Knocking on heavens door" than it is to understand what a ii V i is.

My problem I think is not really having a clear idea of what "learning a song" actually means. 

I understand what it means for somebody in a band and playing rhythm or taking a lead solo. But what does it mean for a home player? Maybe the (rhetorical) question is what does it mean to play guitar in isolation at all? So, everyone will chime in with "play in a band, play in a band" .....but that's not realistic for me (a 50 y.o perpetual beginner with a young family and demanding job) . So, my guitar journey is about finding out how to use the instrument to say something, outside of a band context. That's my challenge. I'm pretty good on theory, I know the notes on the fretboard, I can construct chords, I can harmonise the major scale....but I can't SAY anything with the instrument......

Vinylfan

@Alnico - thanks, I've downloaded the Steve Vai workout to read properly.  I've run through the exercise you mentioned yesterday and today and already can feel that some frets are easier to do than others.  Positions like the 1st fret are obviously harder, but mainly with getting the 3rd finger in the right place. I'm now rolling the fingers as opposed to leaving them in place - that seems to be a better workout (for me at least).

Will keep going for a week and see how far I get.  

To the OP - you've been in a band, played in front of people and know all kinds of theory - these are all things that I can't imagine ever doing so you may lost your mojo but I wouldn't think you're even close to being crap!

Alnico

Vinylfan said:

@Alnico - thanks, I've downloaded the Steve Vai workout to read properly.  I've run through the exercise you mentioned yesterday and today and already can feel that some frets are easier to do than others.  Positions like the 1st fret are obviously harder, but mainly with getting the 3rd finger in the right place. I'm now rolling the fingers as opposed to leaving them in place - that seems to be a better workout (for me at least).

Will keep going for a week and see how far I get.  

To the OP - you've been in a band, played in front of people and know all kinds of theory - these are all things that I can't imagine ever doing so you may lost your mojo but I wouldn't think you're even close to being crap!

You're welcome.
I find that exercise is a universal warm up for me and I do it daily so I see a little more progress each day.
I find it gets hard around the 8th fret because my fingers get tired then and also I do this using alternate picking and try to sync my right and left hand while doing it. My biggest problem is getting my little finger to work independently from my ring finger, which is how I started to roll my hand while I was doing it, to try to help that along. I find coming back down the pattern more difficult too but it's a nice challenge each day and one I don't have to plug in to hear as it's got nothing to do with phrasing, it's simply can you hit the right notes in the right sequence and for me it's also about doing it in time with the alternate pick strokes of my right hand.
I'm glad it's of some use and when you feel like it, dive a little deeper into Steve's workout..........There's a LOT there!


I'd like to point out that I've jammed with the OP a few times and he's not shit at all, far from it. Den is under-practiced that's all and with the life events he's had to cope with in recent years it's no bloody wonder. Also it can't be easy for him to find mental space to try to absorb all of this but on a few occasions where we've been able to block out the world and leave it all behind for a couple of hours I've seen and heard him play and it's definitely not shit, not at all.
Just wanted to point that out Den because I'm sure I've been in that situation myself and I'm sure lots of others have too. My medical adventures have kept me away from playing for around 12 months until about 3 weeks ago.............How good do you think I sound at the moment? I'm not shit but I don't sound great through a sheer lack of time, physical ability to play and mental space to concentrate.
If you can find a way around that and make some 'Me Time' then you're onto a real winner and you'll notice the prgress accelerate quicker than you realise.

Keep at it everyone and contrary to the tone of my earlier post, yes do have fun doing this. I believe in hard work with this and sometimes that doesn't translate well posting here but as well as working hard at something, we're all doing this to enjoy ourselves and I don't think I gave that enough credence in my earlier post.

My Apologies if it came across the wrong way.

octatonic

jellyroll said:

octatonic said:

Ok, well learning songs is something I reckon you can do.
Every guitarist should know a lot of songs- imho it is more important to know how to play "Knocking on heavens door" than it is to understand what a ii V i is.

My problem I think is not really having a clear idea of what "learning a song" actually means. 

I understand what it means for somebody in a band and playing rhythm or taking a lead solo. But what does it mean for a home player? Maybe the (rhetorical) question is what does it mean to play guitar in isolation at all? So, everyone will chime in with "play in a band, play in a band" .....but that's not realistic for me (a 50 y.o perpetual beginner with a young family and demanding job) . So, my guitar journey is about finding out how to use the instrument to say something, outside of a band context. That's my challenge. I'm pretty good on theory, I know the notes on the fretboard, I can construct chords, I can harmonise the major scale....but I can't SAY anything with the instrument......

Learning a song simply allows you to know how to play a song.
Meaning you can pick up the guitar and play it from beginning to end.
It doesn't have to be a technically demanding song- I'm a bit of a technically focussed player but most of my repertoire are pop/rock covers because that is what pays.

You can say things with the instrument- that actually has nothing to do with how much theory you know though.
Music is a language- if you have a vocabulary or 1000 words or 100,000 words then you can still say something.
Music is no different.

If I was in your position I would set myself the task of learning a dozen songs that can be played and sung together.
Knocking on Heaven's Door is a staple- start with that.
Don't tell me you can't sing, you can sing enough to accompany your guitar playing.

Play it different ways- try playing it slowly, with the vocals almost spoken.
Try it up tempo.
Try it in a reggae style.
Try a chordal version where you don't sing at all but play the melody on the top strings whilst holding down the chords.
Try a jazzier version with 7th and 9th chords.
Play with it- not everything you will do will work but you will hone your musical instincts which is really what it is all about.

jellyroll

octatonic said:

Learning a song simply allows you to know how to play a song.
Meaning you can pick up the guitar and play it from beginning to end.
It doesn't have to be a technically demanding song- I'm a bit of a technically focussed player but most of my repertoire are pop/rock covers because that is what pays.

You can say things with the instrument- that actually has nothing to do with how much theory you know though.
Music is a language- if you have a vocabulary or 1000 words or 100,000 words then you can still say something.
Music is no different.

If I was in your position I would set myself the task of learning a dozen songs that can be played and sung together.
Knocking on Heaven's Door is a staple- start with that.
Don't tell me you can't sing, you can sing enough to accompany your guitar playing.

Play it different ways- try playing it slowly, with the vocals almost spoken.
Try it up tempo.
Try it in a reggae style.
Try a chordal version where you don't sing at all but play the melody on the top strings whilst holding down the chords.
Try a jazzier version with 7th and 9th chords.
Play with it- not everything you will do will work but you will hone your musical instincts which is really what it is all about.

Cheers @octatonic I'll give those suggestions a try. 

Veganic

Don't try it in a reggae style!

octatonic

Veganic said:

Don't try it in a reggae style!

Why not?
I'm not suggesting he black up.

Veganic

octatonic said:

Veganic said:

Don't try it in a reggae style!

Why not?
I'm not suggesting he black up.

Just ensuring a balance of opinions.
Now the decision is all his.

octatonic

In all seriousness, learning to play on the offbeat is one of the best things a player can do for their playing.

Another really good suggestion is to use a halftime metronome so that it hits on the 2 & 4, so you have to develop your own sense of where the 1 & 3 are.
All of my students learn this.

Philly_Q

octatonic said:

Another really good suggestion is to use a halftime metronome so that it hits on the 2 & 4, so you have to develop your own sense of where the 1 & 3 are.

See, now you're getting intimidating again.

I know it's not intentional.

octatonic

Philly_Q said:

octatonic said:

Another really good suggestion is to use a halftime metronome so that it hits on the 2 & 4, so you have to develop your own sense of where the 1 & 3 are.

See, now you're getting intimidating again.

I know it's not intentional.

I guess it shows the impossibility of these discussions helping beyond the initial encouragement.
Were you one of my students though you'd approach this at the right time and we could spend as long as it would take to get a sense of it.

underdog

@TheOtherDennis I solved the rocksmith lag on Xbox by not using hdmi connection, instead I used the old composite connections. Also separate amp for sound (not TV speakers being fed via hdmi) solve it. Did you adjust within the settings on the game, as that helps too 

Teetonetal

It only matters if realising stops you enjoying it.

I'm awful at mountain biking. Yet I spend mOst of my free time mountain biking  I just love it. But I've taken courses, done skills sessions and read books and after 15 years I'm no better than poor. Some part of my brain just stops me ever getting confident enough to progress.

TheOtherDennis

@Alnico, @Vibetronic, @Philly_Q ; - thanks for the kind words, chaps, I appreciate it, genuinely.

@underdog - I'd try the old composite connections again, if I could find them, but I've moved on to a PS4 now. Haven't seen Rocksmith for that yet. I bought version 2 to use on the laptop a couple of years ago and wound up with the same issues. Which is very annoying because I switched to bass for a bit and found I could play the bass line to Every Breath You Take with it, right up to 100%, which astonished me, because I really didn't think I'd get anywhere near it. I'd have another go, but I'm trying to do something else now instead.

@Teetonetal - I know exactly what you mean! I have a pile of tab books and instruction books and tab sheets and stuff. If I sat down and learned even half of them properly, I'd never have even thought of starting this thread!

I guess I just need to stop worrying and enjoy the good bits more.

notanon

usedtobe said:

You sound just like me! We should form a really shit band!
  

Has this band been formed yet or are you still looking for more members? I excel at sh*t :-)

Bridgehouse

This thread so needs an in person jam setting up...

Nice big rehearsal space, a volunteer for drums and bass and turn up if you fancy learning some stuff.

I would even pay for the rehearsal room myself and volunteer bass...

TheOtherDennis

We tried that a couple of years ago. @Alnico was due to go round the country doing that and he managed a couple of times (he came up to Leicester twice, once to meet me on my own at a rehearsal studio, and once to meet a bunch of us - something like 16 said they'd come but only 7 or 8 turned up).

Then his illness hit big time and he had to revert.

I'd be up for it again, though, where we did it in Leicester (Quad) is a great place with some awesome amps and drums set up ready. At £16 an hour it's far from the most expensive place in town, either.

Vinylfan

Bridgehouse said:

This thread so needs an in person jam setting up...

Nice big rehearsal space, a volunteer for drums and bass and turn up if you fancy learning some stuff.

I would even pay for the rehearsal room myself and volunteer bass...

Sounds awesome.

Bridgehouse

I will discuss with @Alnico

darthed1981

usedtobe said:

You sound just like me! We should form a really shit band!
  

Yeah I'm in as well