Gibson lp v Tokai lp: which to buy

crunchman

BloodEagle said:

Gibson all day long - I've come across some with a few fit/finish issues, but never come across one which doesn't play well and sound awesome.  

I have.

I've come across some good ones as well though.

underdog

BloodEagle said:

Gibson all day long - I've come across some with a few fit/finish issues, but never come across one which doesn't play well and sound awesome.  

I'm with you on that, I've bought Gibson's blind, I've bought them cheap so not paid attention to them when looking over, but I've honestly never played one that didn't do exactly what I expected it to.

usedtobe

underdog said:

BloodEagle said:

Gibson all day long - I've come across some with a few fit/finish issues, but never come across one which doesn't play well and sound awesome.  

I'm with you on that, I've bought Gibson's blind, I've bought them cheap so not paid attention to them when looking over, but I've honestly never played one that didn't do exactly what I expected it to.

Same here.

RandallFlagg

I really don't get the Gibson hate. 

underdog

RandallFlagg said:

I really don't get the Gibson hate. 

It's because they live on the heritage of old guitar designs and keep rehashing the same old thing every year, they never make anything new or progress.

Or

OMG Gibson have released a new model, it's nothing like a Les Paul/SG what were they thinking, why don't they stick to their classic models, that's what people want.

The reason changes depending if a new model has been released or not that month.

Also everyone's £200 Epiphone/tokai/ESP/Harley Benton plays better if you believe them.

Boromedic

Whilst admittedly the current owners are running like a lifestyle company rather than a guitar company, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Everytime they try something new (robot tuners as an example) the internet goes mental, then when they just try and release standard stuff they get roasted..... how do they win?

Btw, that new Les with the pedal built in is a pretty awful idea.... and don't get me started on the Firebird X...... I'm no Gibson fan boy but I think they can never win. It's not like with Marshall where they just blatantly ignore what everyone wants.

ICBM

Boromedic said:

Whilst admittedly the current owners are running like a lifestyle company rather than a guitar company, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Everytime they try something new (robot tuners as an example) the internet goes mental, then when they just try and release standard stuff they get roasted..... how do they win?

By releasing standard stuff with good QC and sensible prices.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Boromedic said:

Whilst admittedly the current owners are running like a lifestyle company rather than a guitar company, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Everytime they try something new (robot tuners as an example) the internet goes mental, then when they just try and release standard stuff they get roasted..... how do they win?

By releasing standard stuff with good QC and sensible prices.

I agree

I have no issue with Gibson releasing anLP Std style guitar with modern locking tuners, easy access neck/body join, fast neck profile and coil tap options - BUT DON'T CALL IT AN LP STANDARD - call it an LP Modern or similar - We all know what an LP Standard is, so just make the best classic LP Standard you can for 2Kish - a market exists for both but at what proportion I don't know - And DON'T CHANGE THE WHOLE CATALOGUE EVERY 12 MONTHS - You could easily introduce Ltd Ed models based on 'regular catalogue' models throughout the year - Be it based on a limited run of colours, quilt tops, upgrade p/ups, even a VOS or aged finish etc etc, and these runs are required to supplement the core line but DON'T CHANGE THE WHOLE CATALOGUE

Boromedic

ICBM said:

Boromedic said:

Whilst admittedly the current owners are running like a lifestyle company rather than a guitar company, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Everytime they try something new (robot tuners as an example) the internet goes mental, then when they just try and release standard stuff they get roasted..... how do they win?

By releasing standard stuff with good QC and sensible prices.

I thought the new LP Traditional Standards were very decent all round guitars, the ones I've tried have been well made and they're all as is with spec. for £1600 I think they're a bargain. Considering I paid £1400 for my standard back in 1999, it's even better value.

Dominic

They could always outsource all manufacturing to Tokai  

Boromedic

I agree with Mark ( @guitars4you ), that they should list the traditional as the standard and the new standard as the modern or something. I think aside from all the stupid limited release stuff they have the range spot on for "normal" Les Pauls and the quality is pretty decent. If you want the old style vibe the trads are great and if you want the modern type features like split coils, compound radius, asymmetric neck profile then buy the standard.

ICBM

Boromedic said:

I thought the new LP Traditional Standards were very decent all round guitars, the ones I've tried have been well made and they're all as is with spec. for £1600 I think they're a bargain. Considering I paid £1400 for my standard back in 1999, it's even better value.

Exactly, so why don't they make a lot more like this? In fact, why is it even called the "Traditional", when it should just be the Standard… constantly changing the spec so no-one really knows what the model names mean any more is part of the problem.

If you're a buyer who isn't clued up on this and all the year-model nonsense, and you want a Les Paul Standard, when you go to a shop to buy a Les Paul Standard then that is what you should get - the same spec as a Standard always was, just not necessarily made with the same level of purist accuracy as a Historic.

Boromedic

Yeah I've just agreed on that point with Mark above, wholeheartedly. However that doesn't detract from the fact that the Traditional is a very good guitar for that price. 

The issue with all the swapping and muddying the waters is corporate ownership I reckon, trying to get owner of one guitar to buy more, by changing shit all the time. Or enticing new buyers into a sale without them realising it's not what they thought they were buying. Don't know if you watched Tim and Petes guitar show on the death of the electric guitar article but they were on about something similar. 

Gibson will end up being sold off and return to smaller scale manufacturing more akin to a Suhr or PRS in the end I think. With a core line as suggested by you and G4U, and then smaller scale limiteds trading off their history.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Boromedic said:

I thought the new LP Traditional Standards were very decent all round guitars, the ones I've tried have been well made and they're all as is with spec. for £1600 I think they're a bargain. Considering I paid £1400 for my standard back in 1999, it's even better value.

Exactly, so why don't they make a lot more like this? In fact, why is it even called the "Traditional", when it should just be the Standard… constantly changing the spec so no-one really knows what the model names mean any more is part of the problem.

If you're a buyer who isn't clued up on this and all the year-model nonsense, and you want a Les Paul Standard, when you go to a shop to buy a Les Paul Standard then that is what you should get - the same spec as a Standard always was, just not necessarily made with the same level of purist accuracy as a Historic.

I think the range needs tidying up so a clear cut direction is in place for all - If select models need to go then fine - I appreciate Gibson will wish to offer an LP at different price points and no issue with that - But select a model and price point and stick to it Plus offer clear defined differences between say an LP Studio, LP Classic, LP Traditional and LP Std and not just price points but spec/features/hardware/pick-ups/colours etc  - then release limited runs within this as required to compliment the core range 

I fully appreciate you can't undermine the Custom Shop/Vintage/Historic Collection models - But a limited run from time to time of an LP Std with say MHS pick-ups is one option with an R9 wiring loom - Next time might be an LP Std with an aged VOS S/burst finish - next time an LP Standard with correct vintage hardware inc ABR-1 etc - You can't add all on one guitar, partly as cost will make it crazy money and as I mentioned before you can't invade the lucrative R9 market

Granted run a Modern LP with all the gizmo's that today's player might require and again offer select limited runs from time to time

Apply such principles to the SG and 335 models etc etc 

goldtop

I'm conflicted, because my daily is a Gibson Les Paul. But £ for £, there is no comparison whatsoever: a Japanese Tokai is beyong anything Gibson can do.

The Gibson range is now structured to extract as much from the market as possible, which means (IMHO) that they care rather less about making the mainstream guitars very well. (Why bother when a little bit of effort puts out a limited edition at a markup far beyond the production models?)

There are compromises, such as fret-nib-binding, multi-piece backs, veneers, etc on all but the top-dollar Tokais. But they're easy to live with except for bragging rights.

Bennyboy-UK

Rather than new bow about a used Navigator? or another Japanese LP selected by someone who really knows them check these out! http://www.japanguitars.co.uk ;

Boromedic

goldtop said:

I'm conflicted, because my daily is a Gibson Les Paul. But £ for £, there is no comparison whatsoever: a Japanese Tokai is beyong anything Gibson can do.

The Gibson range is now structured to extract as much from the market as possible, which means (IMHO) that they care rather less about making the mainstream guitars very well. (Why bother when a little bit of effort puts out a limited edition at a markup far beyond the production models?)

There are compromises, such as fret-nib-binding, multi-piece backs, veneers, etc on all but the top-dollar Tokais. But they're easy to live with except for bragging rights.

Hence why the advice was to look at used Gibsons, especially ones from the 90's and early 00's, however you or Dominic say it, it's still a Tokai and the op wants a Gibson. If he wanted a new one 2016 and 2017 Traditionals are as good as any of the Tokai, Greco, or Burny guitars I've had my hands on in the past. QC is less of an issue than it was in the last decade, the internet has exacerbated this idea and now everyone who hates Gibson spreads it around. It's a bit like the theory that if you breathe wrong on your LP the headstock will snap off and the universe will end, jeez it's straightforward just don't drop it.

There's a bit of bragging rights and self affirmation with this whole Japanese LP is better than a real Gibson malarkey, look at my post above. Is one individual Tokai (or other) guitar potentially better than one individual Gibson, of course as Gibson have built some real dogs, hence the suggestion to try them out. Part of the reason the reputation for the Japanese ones exists is because of the lawsuit guitars from the 70's, when Gibson were churning out shite they were the best option at the time. That's not the case so much anymore.

crunchman

goldtop said:

I'm conflicted, because my daily is a Gibson Les Paul. But £ for £, there is no comparison whatsoever: a Japanese Tokai is beyong anything Gibson can do.

No.  When Gibson get it right they are great.

I've owned a Japanese Tokai.  I much prefer the Gibson I have now.  On the other hand, there are definitely some Gibsons that were worse than the Tokai.  Mine was from the lower/middle part of the Japanese range.  I don't know how the high end ones compare, but if I'm spending that kind of money on something that is not a Gibson I'd look at a PRS Singlecut 245 or 594, or something like a Feline.

bobliefeld

You see a classified ad for a used Tokai, £1,000 ono.  "BETTER THAN ANY GIBSON LES PAUL (WITH THEIR RUBBISH QA) IN EVERY WAY. THE BEST LES PAUL YOU WILL EVER PLAY.  PERIOD.".

You go round the blokes house to see it and notice his Gibson Les Paul standard..  "How much for the Gibson?"

"The Gibson is NOT for sale!"

goldtop

crunchman said:

goldtop said:

I'm conflicted, because my daily is a Gibson Les Paul. But £ for £, there is no comparison whatsoever: a Japanese Tokai is beyong anything Gibson can do.

No.  When Gibson get it right they are great.

I've owned a Japanese Tokai.  I much prefer the Gibson I have now.  On the other hand, there are definitely some Gibsons that were worse than the Tokai.  Mine was from the lower/middle part of the Japanese range.  I don't know how the high end ones compare, but if I'm spending that kind of money on something that is not a Gibson I'd look at a PRS Singlecut 245 or 594, or something like a Feline.

Except you missed the part where I said £ for £. I've owned three Tokai Love Rocks (LS-50, LS-75 and LS-320) and something like 8 Gibson Les Pauls, from vintage, through Classics to Custom Shop. I've still got three Gibsons. I've also got a high-end replica.

When considering the same cost, the Gibsons are nowhere.

The bit I've put in bold shows how strong your bias is. Instead of bothering to find out how good/bad a high-end Tokai is, you prefer to remain ignorant. Not sure how that attitude helps inform the thread!