Helix Native

Freebird

guitarfishbay said:

dindude said:

I didn't expect it to be a popular opinion. Like I say, I've spent only a bit of time with it this morning and that is the impression I've come away with, like it or not, I just could not get inspired by what I heard in a month of Sundays, it really was bad.

Now i I do know that others have had similar first impression and then went on to love Helix, so I'm not saying there's not something in there. What I've got to consider is that I only get roughly 1 to 2 hours a week to properly play guitar at the moment, so I don't think endless tweaking fits with me, I want to be playing in this time.

Then just stick with amps

It's still the right choice for many people

A Kemper Profiler is the middle ground.

Jonathanthomas83

dindude said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Downloaded the free Native trial this morning. Only had an hour with it and maybe will get an hour tomorrow. I know everyone say stay away from the presets but you've got to start somewhere. Honestly, it sounds aweful. Just no better than the Digitech RP50 or something I had many years ago. I'm running through an audient interface into my Mac and out to Yamaha HS5's. 
I just don't think I get on with the full range modelling experience - I reckon with a lot of tweaking I could get something that sits well in a mix, but for just guitarplaying by myself, even at neibour friendly volumes, I just don't know where people are coming from with this - its not a patch on amp and pedals.

Nothing against Line 6 either, I've had the same experienice with S-gear and others I've tried.

You should try micing your own anp with an sm57 and then compare. There will still be a difference but it will be less! Hearing your guitar through a mic is a sobering and not really pleasant experience without spicing it up with some room simulating reverb and delay fx. 

That's exactly what I do for the little amount of recording that I do. For example, I've done a few pedalboard run throughs in the past with just an SM57 stuck in front of my amp and I'm happy enough to chuck them out there as a fairly accurate representation of my sounds. I tolerate the headphones tracking as I record but yes never great.

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

@dindude have you tried FRFR on anything other than your HS5s?

Nope just the Yams and headphones.

I think that's the issue then. You say it's a "feel thing", you're not going to get that feel you're looking for from a pair if small monitors, mate. Things are different when you use bigger FRFR speakers with more power and volume, a lot different. The "under the fingers" stuff people are banging on about is definitely a thing when I use the Axe FX and my DXR10s, feels huge, easily as nice as when I had my regular cabs, IMO.

ruoma

dindude said:

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

I completely agree.

I compared my J20 with the Suhr load box into a celestion IR vs helix native with the same IR, and although very impressive, the helix just doesn't feel as dynamic or direct. And I have a very VERY good sound card. I'm monitoring through headphones and Neumann monitors. I know people say you might not notice it in the mix yadayada, but I think when you add up the increased dynamics of 4 double tracked guitars etc, you will. Live is perhaps another thing. And also, it just feels a whole lot better with the real amp and Suhr, and feels even EVEN BETTER with a real speaker as load and the celestion IR, at which point I might as well mic it IF the room is decent.

Jonathanthomas83

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

I completely agree.

I compared my J20 with the Suhr load box into a celestion IR vs helix native with the same IR, and although very impressive, the helix just doesn't feel as dynamic or direct. And I have a very VERY good sound card. I'm monitoring through headphones and Neumann monitors. I know people say you might not notive it in the mix yadayada, but I think when you add up the increased dynamics of 4 double tracked guitars etc, you will. Live is perhaps another thing. And also, it just feels a whole lot better with the real amp and Suhr, and feels even EVEN BETTER with a real speaker as load and the celestion IR, at which point I might as well mic it IF the room is decent.

I had the Suhr RL and an amp for a long time and although it was fantastic and it changed my whole approach to gear, I'd happily disagree with your sentiment that it's 'a whole lot better'.  There is no difference in the feel. I'd stand by that. The tone, very minimal differences, not enough to get hung up about and start collecting pedals and power supplies again.

It's all subjective, of course, but my current setup is 100 times better in so many regards, not least, in the sheer amount of tones I can carve out - I use three main tones, Hiwatt clean, JCM800 and a Dual Rec, all are spot on and consistent with how I remember my amps.  

When I discovered IRs and load boxes I was blown away. It was 90% of the equation for me. The other 10% I knew would be achievable with the right modelling. All those months I played with my amp and different pedals, I couldn't help but feel that a modeller wouldn't be too dissimilar to it and that I'd get the tones I was using and the many I was looking for in pedals...to my mind, as I made the switch, I was absolutely correct in my hypothesis and I'm glad I switched, I'd never go back now. 

I can't speak for the Helix as I've not had the same results when I tried with that but my current gear never fails to bring a smile to my face every time I turn it on. Sorry, I can get overtly evangelistic about stuff I like and want others to experience it too.

ruoma

@Jonathanthomas83 ;

I haven't tried an axefx or kemper yet. But to my ears, with the Helix, there is a difference. And the difference honestly doubles when playing with a speaker as the load but still with an IR. The dynamics you get then are truly a step above!

You are completely right about the massive possibilities though, which I currently don't think I'd need, but probably would use due to the sheer ease of use of the unit. So as mentioned before by @Wazmeister I think it was, regarding helix anyways: The main reason for me should I ever decide to gig with one, would be due to the creative possibilities per one footswitch press, which could potentially make for a better show. But I would definitely not do it for tone, which we are probably all over-obsessing about in a live situation anyways!

But for studio work on the other hand, amps for me for now, just two flavours is fine, with post production fx, and maybe a kemper in the future... 

But I mean, if you listen to say the new QOTSA album for instance, do you really think those tones could be achievable with a helix? I don't. There's just a body and weight to those riffs that helix can't reach, but perhaps axe or kemper can... I think I should just really try a kemper for the ultimate test...

guitarfishbay

ruoma said:

I haven't tried an axefx or kemper yet. But to my ears, with the Helix, there is a difference. And the difference honestly doubles when playing with a speaker as the load but still with an IR. The dynamics you get then are truly a step above!

---

But I mean, if you listen to say the new QOTSA album for instance, do you really think those tones could be achievable with a helix? I don't. There's just a body and weight to those riffs that helix can't reach, but perhaps axe or kemper can... I think I should just really try a kemper for the ultimate test...

 I know what you mean and this has been my experience with the Helix guitar models too.

The sounds are decent but the weight doesn't feel completely connected to the notes. The high gain amps sound high gain but feel tamer to play through than I want and it does translate to the sound to me, the weight doesn't feel dynamically tied to the notes to the extent I want and the bass feels like a separate occurrence to the cab IR used rather than part of the same setup, it's hard to explain to someone who isn't looking for the same thing and is happy with it. 

From an I would like to translate an idea in my head into a sound kind of viewpoint, the Fractal doesn't feel like it gets in my way but the Helix does and I find myself getting bogged down in trying to tweak it because it's not feeling right to me. I don't think it works for me for guitar, if I'm playing into it. It can definitely get decent sounds but I honestly think it takes less time to get an even better sound from the Axe FX, YMMV and I don't expect anyone to feel I'm objective.

On the other hand I think it is outright the best multiFX for bass. The only thing stopping me buying Native is the price, which I do think is fair looking at the whole package however I only want to use half of the plugin so it feels too steep to me right now.

ruoma

guitarfishbay said:

On the other hand I think it is outright the best multiFX for bass. The only thing stopping me buying Native is the price, which I do think is fair looking at the whole package however I only want to use half of the plugin so it feels too steep to me right now.

Agreed on the price! It's way too much for not being truly there yet.
Should try it on bass though...

stratman3142

dindude said:

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Downloaded the free Native trial this morning. Only had an hour with it and maybe will get an hour tomorrow. I know everyone say stay away from the presets but you've got to start somewhere. Honestly, it sounds aweful. Just no better than the Digitech RP50 or something I had many years ago. I'm running through an audient interface into my Mac and out to Yamaha HS5's. 
I just don't think I get on with the full range modelling experience - I reckon with a lot of tweaking I could get something that sits well in a mix, but for just guitarplaying by myself, even at neibour friendly volumes, I just don't know where people are coming from with this - its not a patch on amp and pedals.

Nothing against Line 6 either, I've had the same experienice with S-gear and others I've tried.

You should try micing your own anp with an sm57 and then compare. There will still be a difference but it will be less! Hearing your guitar through a mic is a sobering and not really pleasant experience without spicing it up with some room simulating reverb and delay fx. 

That's exactly what I do for the little amount of recording that I do. For example, I've done a few pedalboard run throughs in the past with just an SM57 stuck in front of my amp and I'm happy enough to chuck them out there as a fairly accurate representation of my sounds. I tolerate the headphones tracking as I record but yes never great.

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

dindude

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Downloaded the free Native trial this morning. Only had an hour with it and maybe will get an hour tomorrow. I know everyone say stay away from the presets but you've got to start somewhere. Honestly, it sounds aweful. Just no better than the Digitech RP50 or something I had many years ago. I'm running through an audient interface into my Mac and out to Yamaha HS5's. 
I just don't think I get on with the full range modelling experience - I reckon with a lot of tweaking I could get something that sits well in a mix, but for just guitarplaying by myself, even at neibour friendly volumes, I just don't know where people are coming from with this - its not a patch on amp and pedals.

Nothing against Line 6 either, I've had the same experienice with S-gear and others I've tried.

You should try micing your own anp with an sm57 and then compare. There will still be a difference but it will be less! Hearing your guitar through a mic is a sobering and not really pleasant experience without spicing it up with some room simulating reverb and delay fx. 

That's exactly what I do for the little amount of recording that I do. For example, I've done a few pedalboard run throughs in the past with just an SM57 stuck in front of my amp and I'm happy enough to chuck them out there as a fairly accurate representation of my sounds. I tolerate the headphones tracking as I record but yes never great.

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR.

My other pet peeve of modelling in general is how different the basic tonality shows up when you quickly scroll through pre-sets.
line up 10 of the classic quality and different valve amps and quickly switch between them and you'll notice all the differences but bang out an A chord on each and there's a basic set of ingredients that makes it "sit".
Why can't modellers dial in there amps so that you could flip between them without having to rebuild them from scratch.

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

Teetonetal

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Downloaded the free Native trial this morning. Only had an hour with it and maybe will get an hour tomorrow. I know everyone say stay away from the presets but you've got to start somewhere. Honestly, it sounds aweful. Just no better than the Digitech RP50 or something I had many years ago. I'm running through an audient interface into my Mac and out to Yamaha HS5's. 
I just don't think I get on with the full range modelling experience - I reckon with a lot of tweaking I could get something that sits well in a mix, but for just guitarplaying by myself, even at neibour friendly volumes, I just don't know where people are coming from with this - its not a patch on amp and pedals.

Nothing against Line 6 either, I've had the same experienice with S-gear and others I've tried.

You should try micing your own anp with an sm57 and then compare. There will still be a difference but it will be less! Hearing your guitar through a mic is a sobering and not really pleasant experience without spicing it up with some room simulating reverb and delay fx. 

That's exactly what I do for the little amount of recording that I do. For example, I've done a few pedalboard run throughs in the past with just an SM57 stuck in front of my amp and I'm happy enough to chuck them out there as a fairly accurate representation of my sounds. I tolerate the headphones tracking as I record but yes never great.

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR.

My other pet peeve of modelling in general is how different the basic tonality shows up when you quickly scroll through pre-sets.
line up 10 of the classic quality and different valve amps and quickly switch between them and you'll notice all the differences but bang out an A chord on each and there's a basic set of ingredients that makes it "sit".
Why can't modellers dial in there amps so that you could flip between them without having to rebuild them from scratch.

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

Couldn't disagree with that more really. get 10 of the same valve amps and sometimes you can get wild differences based on age, speaker use, valve use etc, let alone swapping from amp to amp. In fact, one of the things I like about modelling is the consistency. Once you spend a bit of time with it you know exactly how it will react. Which isn't always true of a valve amp.

That said, I do think getting the exact tone you want does require a bit more work at first and you need to find out how all the options interact. It's kind of the point. These boxes are trying to be all things to all guitarists. Impose an inbuilt shared tonality into them and you'd be adding a sonic blueprint to the models that you couldn't dial out.

I don't hear here a hollowness to the sound, and I certainly don't have problems with the feel or the decay. But, crucially, you do. so this modelling lark really doesn't seem to be for you.... yet. 

I guess I can consider my self lucky that after an initial sticking point with helix, I found a away to make it work for me.

ruoma

For me it's definitely about pick attack. Sure, the helix has dynamics, it's a pretty good plugin, and when I'm playing I can enjoy it, but the response of a real amp through the IR is just a step up in expressiveness and explosiveness (going from quiet to loud). Unless I'm missing some settings? I've only played around with tone controls on helix native, none of the sag controls etc. 

PS: you guys do know that when you quote someone you don't need to quote the whole conversation right? So much scrollling!

stratman3142

ruoma said:

...you guys do know that ... you don't need to quote the whole conversation right?...

Yes, sorry I was being lazy

gibsongretschfan

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

dindude said:

Downloaded the free Native trial this morning. Only had an hour with it and maybe will get an hour tomorrow. I know everyone say stay away from the presets but you've got to start somewhere. Honestly, it sounds aweful. Just no better than the Digitech RP50 or something I had many years ago. I'm running through an audient interface into my Mac and out to Yamaha HS5's. 
I just don't think I get on with the full range modelling experience - I reckon with a lot of tweaking I could get something that sits well in a mix, but for just guitarplaying by myself, even at neibour friendly volumes, I just don't know where people are coming from with this - its not a patch on amp and pedals.

Nothing against Line 6 either, I've had the same experienice with S-gear and others I've tried.

You should try micing your own anp with an sm57 and then compare. There will still be a difference but it will be less! Hearing your guitar through a mic is a sobering and not really pleasant experience without spicing it up with some room simulating reverb and delay fx. 

That's exactly what I do for the little amount of recording that I do. For example, I've done a few pedalboard run throughs in the past with just an SM57 stuck in front of my amp and I'm happy enough to chuck them out there as a fairly accurate representation of my sounds. I tolerate the headphones tracking as I record but yes never great.

Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR.

My other pet peeve of modelling in general is how different the basic tonality shows up when you quickly scroll through pre-sets.
line up 10 of the classic quality and different valve amps and quickly switch between them and you'll notice all the differences but bang out an A chord on each and there's a basic set of ingredients that makes it "sit".
Why can't modellers dial in there amps so that you could flip between them without having to rebuild them from scratch.

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

All of (I think) the amp models have their master volume at 10 by default. Might account fur some of the compression you're hearing 

guitarfishbay

ruoma said:

For me it's definitely about pick attack. Sure, the helix has dynamics, it's a pretty good plugin, and when I'm playing I can enjoy it, but the response of a real amp through the IR is just a step up in expressiveness and explosiveness (going from quiet to loud). Unless I'm missing some settings? I've only played around with tone controls on helix native, none of the sag controls etc. 

I don't think so, I find you can get a slightly tighter response lowering the sag control a little but that explosiveness thing just isn't there and I think we are describing the same thing. If you get a chance you should try an Axe FX2 or AX8, I think you'd prefer the playing feel. I've not played through a Kemper personally.

As far as end result they can all work. But none of the plugins I've tried for high gain have a response and feel as good as the Axe FX 2 as far as I'm concerned. Again YMMV 

robinbowes

gibsongretschfan said:

All of (I think) the amp models have their master volume at 10 by default. Might account fur some of the compression you're hearing 

I'm not sure how that would cause extra compression. In fact, I'd expect there to be more compression if the master is lower and the gain is cranked. 

R. 

guitarfishbay

robinbowes said:

gibsongretschfan said:

All of (I think) the amp models have their master volume at 10 by default. Might account fur some of the compression you're hearing 

I'm not sure how that would cause extra compression. In fact, I'd expect there to be more compression if the master is lower and the gain is cranked. 

R. 

I'm not sure.

If you run a power amp very high on a real amp it will reach a point where it runs out of headroom.

Most modern preamp type distortion sounds rely on a lot of headroom, this lower master settings are preferable (in relative terms)

gibsongretschfan

robinbowes said:

gibsongretschfan said:

All of (I think) the amp models have their master volume at 10 by default. Might account fur some of the compression you're hearing 

I'm not sure how that would cause extra compression. In fact, I'd expect there to be more compression if the master is lower and the gain is cranked. 

R. 

Power tube compression is what makes a valve amp sound stiff at bedroom volumes but feel great at gig volumes. When set flat out things get even more compressed as there is no more headroom and the sound can get flubby especially in the low end. For high gain sounds especially I would drop the master on all the amps to no more than half

even on the twin and deluxe as you'd rarely ever hear one flat out anyway

Drew_TNBD

gibsongretschfan said:

robinbowes said:

gibsongretschfan said:

All of (I think) the amp models have their master volume at 10 by default. Might account fur some of the compression you're hearing 

I'm not sure how that would cause extra compression. In fact, I'd expect there to be more compression if the master is lower and the gain is cranked. 

R. 

Power tube compression is what makes a valve amp sound stiff at bedroom volumes but feel great at gig volumes. When set flat out things get even more compressed as there is no more headroom and the sound can get flubby especially in the low end. For high gain sounds especially I would drop the master on all the amps to no more than half

even on the twin and deluxe as you'd rarely ever hear one flat out anyway

Agreed. One of the tests of the 'realism' of a modeller is to crank the master amp volume, and then bring the level down in the DAW to avoid clipping. If it's the same tone and feel as when the master is at a sensible level, then it's a crap amp modeller.

imo.

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

Agreed. One of the tests of the 'realism' of a modeller is to crank the master amp volume, and then bring the level down in the DAW to avoid clipping. If it's the same tone and feel as when the master is at a sensible level, then it's a crap amp modeller.

imo.

I personally wouldn't care if it could do the sound I wanted.

But objectively that would indicate it's not modelling power section dynamics properly

stratman3142

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

....Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR....

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

@dindude ;; I think you're a Robben Ford fan from what you said on another thread, so am I correct in guessing that you're into the clean to medium gain blues type tones. Have you tried Amplitube Fender 2? I think there might be free demo.

Firstly, I'd point out that I'm in no way associated with IK, even though I keep going on about the Fender 2 collection.

I've just been doing some comparisons of what I accept are fairly specific amp type tones, which were Fender bluesy clean to medium gain sounds. I was surprised how much I really did prefer some of the tones in Amplitube Fender 2 for that type of sound and feel. I was comparing it with S-Gear 2 and my Helix LT. My second favourite was S-Gear 2 but it was a quite a bit behind. I couldn't quite find what I was looking for with the Helix LT, but that might be down to inexperience on my part and I may need to spend more time on it.

However, what I've described is a type of tone that Amplitube Fender 2 focuses on, and I expect that S-Gear and Helix will win out for other types of tone and have greater versatility.

Oops: Sorry I've just realised I've gone way off topic and drifted off Helix Native.