Helix Native

Bridgehouse

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

octatonic

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

Bridgehouse

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

For bass on the album we have just recently recorded I went through the Ampeg SCR-DI to warm it slightly and then straight in. 

So I agree. But if you're after a specific bass sound, the Helix ones are very good....

normula1

As a side note, not all load boxes are created equal. I did a test a couple of weeks ago of a straight resistive load vs a reactive one.
I have a resistive load box with a transformer coupled line out where I can switch to the load resistors or a speaker. So by connecting the speaker out to the reactive load and the line out to a DAW with a Celstion G12-65 IR I was able to do a pretty good A B test.
At lower amp output levels where the output valves weren't being overdriven the difference was noticable but quite small. As I turned the wick up the difference was huge. The resistive load didn't sound bad but was a little flat and compressed. The reactive load was massively more dynamic with a much wider spread of frequencies and generally far more alive and inspiring to play. 

Drew_TNBD

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

Hmmm... my trick is to do a shit ton! Last album, each bass take had 5 microphones and a DI!

Heartfeltdawn

gibsongretschfan said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Digital_Igloo said:

Something's fishy. I've been using both S-Gear and Helix Native all summer on a record and if you're hearing "awful", definitely check your input level. Your guitar tracks should stay in the green; that is, –18 ~ –36dB. Compensate with the output slider.

I'm fully conversant with input levels and suchlike.It's simply that I don't like how Native sounds. 

Wow, what a snidey bitch

Pot, kettle etc. 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1555496/#Comment_1555496

So from one snidey bitch to one useless tosser, I think we're equal. 

Bridgehouse

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

Hmmm... my trick is to do a shit ton! Last album, each bass take had 5 microphones and a DI!

Were you mic'ing up your trouser bass as well??!!

Drew_TNBD

Bridgehouse said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

Hmmm... my trick is to do a shit ton! Last album, each bass take had 5 microphones and a DI!

Were you mic'ing up your trouser bass as well??!!

Nah, DI'd it into yer maw.

octatonic

YMMV but I don't think I've ever used more then 2 mics on a bass amp- usually a D12 or M88 up close and something like U47FET a metre away.
I find more mics just means more phase issues to sort but no real advantage.

I've been messing around with Brainworx BX_Control lately which has some very cool MS tools for bass treatment.

guitarfishbay

Since listening to an interview with Nolly I've stripped back recorded bass to preamp pedal + IR, blending additional DI as necessary for low end. Between the Darkglass B7KU, a Vintage Ultra, and the Ownhammer Ampeg pack I've not really got stuck for sounds lately... most important factors are bass choice, string choice (inc condition), and of course performance.

You can get a lot of mileage with good strings and a good performance into a nice DI with EQ and compression as necessary. For grit/character I think a lot of stuff works but the DG stuff is really fantastic. The Helix B7KU is pretty good too - just not as crunchy/aggressive as my real pedal. Character is pretty recognisable though, Doug really did a great job in voicing the pedals

Bridgehouse

Drew_TNBD said:

Bridgehouse said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

I think the bass models are Native's silent weapon. Putting bass tracks down on your latest recording with some excellent amp models and effects without having to spend anything extra (other than a reasonably good cheap bass)...

For me bass is pretty easy to get right- the trick is not to do too much.

A DI is often fine.
Or a DI into a slight warming plugin- Sound Toys Decapitator or something like that.
Tchad Blake uses a Sansamp and his records sound awesome.
Other than that, a slight amount of EQ and compression and have the bass duck the kick drums and you've got a record-ready sound.

Hmmm... my trick is to do a shit ton! Last album, each bass take had 5 microphones and a DI!

Were you mic'ing up your trouser bass as well??!!

Nah, DI'd it into yer maw.

You remembered she needs phantom power, right?

dindude

Teetonetal said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll go the full ISO route but I might get the Two Notes Captor (plus IR's) when it's finally in the shops, won't be perfect but it'll be a good compromise I reckon.

I reckon you won't like it. That method sounds like a mic in front of an amp.  Very, very similar to a modeller.

I have the two notes torpedo and was using that for a while. To my ears helix is the same sound for much, much less faff.

I might be in a minority but the two notes impulses in wos3 are not as good as stock helix cabs.

I guess at least the sounds will be recognisable (hopefully) as my amp and pedals, and onward navigation would be familiar, whereas with the Helix I'd need to invest hours into getting something up from scratch and take the "learning curve".

gibsongretschfan

 Heartfeltdawn said:

gibsongretschfan said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Digital_Igloo said:

Something's fishy. I've been using both S-Gear and Helix Native all summer on a record and if you're hearing "awful", definitely check your input level. Your guitar tracks should stay in the green; that is, –18 ~ –36dB. Compensate with the output slider.

I'm fully conversant with input levels and suchlike.It's simply that I don't like how Native sounds. 

Wow, what a snidey bitch

Pot, kettle etc. 

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1555496/#Comment_1555496

So from one snidey bitch to one useless tosser, I think we're equal. 

Dude you just told a guy that the thing he's been working on relentlessly for the past god knows how many years that his plugin was awful and when he was pleasant enough to offer some advice to you on a random forum which has nothing to do with Line 6 you were a little bitch to him. Then you stalk through my old posts.... get a grip and some manners

digitalscream

normula1 said:

As a side note, not all load boxes are created equal. I did a test a couple of weeks ago of a straight resistive load vs a reactive one.
I have a resistive load box with a transformer coupled line out where I can switch to the load resistors or a speaker. So by connecting the speaker out to the reactive load and the line out to a DAW with a Celstion G12-65 IR I was able to do a pretty good A B test.
At lower amp output levels where the output valves weren't being overdriven the difference was noticable but quite small. As I turned the wick up the difference was huge. The resistive load didn't sound bad but was a little flat and compressed. The reactive load was massively more dynamic with a much wider spread of frequencies and generally far more alive and inspiring to play. 

Hell, yes - I found that resistive loads basically make every amp sound the same. A bit fuzzy in the low end, not particularly characterful and definitely no sparkle at the top end. I was particularly gutted when it made my Soldano Decatone sound exactly the same as the knackered DSL 40 I'd borrowed.

On another note... @gibsongretschfan and @Heartfeltdawn - how about we don't do this in a largely-constructive thread? Take it to PM if you want to have an argument, please

Teetonetal

dindude said:

I guess at least the sounds will be recognisable (hopefully) as my amp and pedals, and onward navigation would be familiar, whereas with the Helix I'd need to invest hours into getting something up from scratch and take the "learning curve".

In that case, maybe you have your expectation level set right - just make sure you get a reactive load, I agree with the above it's a massive improvement over a restive one. 

guitarfishbay

I've been really impressed with the reactive load + IR clips I've heard in general.

If I wasn't using digital that's what I'd do for home recording these days. Besides wanting to learn how to mic an amp, or a specific desire for a particular tone, I don't really see much point in mic'ing cabs for home recording anymore.

There are several IR vendors that do excellent captures of cabs, it just so happens for my tastes OwnHammer seems to mic a cab like I'd want so I use those. I'd take the convenience of being able to scroll through a selection of IRs and being able to control volume over a blaring amp and cabling everywhere any day.  

Teetonetal

guitarfishbay said:

I've been really impressed with the reactive load + IR clips I've heard in general.

If I wasn't using digital that's what I'd do for home recording these days. Besides wanting to learn how to mic an amp, or a specific desire for a particular tone, I don't really see much point in mic'ing cabs for home recording anymore.

There are several IR vendors that do excellent captures of cabs, it just so happens for my tastes OwnHammer seems to mic a cab like I'd want so I use those. I'd take the convenience of being able to scroll through a selection of IRs and being able to control volume over a blaring amp and cabling everywhere any day.  

Yes, I have no issue with Reactive load plus IR at all and it was my method before Helix. I just think that there is virtually no difference to todays current crop of modellers, so if you don't like NAtive, Sgear, AX et all, the chances of you liking load + IR are slim. I believe the weak link at the moment is the IR not the amp model. Helix etc is far more convenient. 

digitalscream

Teetonetal said:

guitarfishbay said:

I've been really impressed with the reactive load + IR clips I've heard in general.

If I wasn't using digital that's what I'd do for home recording these days. Besides wanting to learn how to mic an amp, or a specific desire for a particular tone, I don't really see much point in mic'ing cabs for home recording anymore.

There are several IR vendors that do excellent captures of cabs, it just so happens for my tastes OwnHammer seems to mic a cab like I'd want so I use those. I'd take the convenience of being able to scroll through a selection of IRs and being able to control volume over a blaring amp and cabling everywhere any day.  

Yes, I have no issue with Reactive load plus IR at all and it was my method before Helix. I just think that there is virtually no difference to todays current crop of modellers, so if you don't like NAtive, Sgear, AX et all, the chances of you liking load + IR are slim. I believe the weak link at the moment is the IR not the amp model. Helix etc is far more convenient. 

The thing is, the IR isn't actually a weak link at all - it's just that it reproduces a sound which isn't what (some) people are after in the first place.

I suspect that what's needed - if those people are to find modelling useful - is for cab modelling to be developed to the point where the mic can be taken out of the equation, and the "listening point" set to about 5 feet away and three or four feet off-axis. That's a pretty huge ask, though, given the number of variables affecting the resulting audio.

guitarfishbay

digitalscream said:

The thing is, the IR isn't actually a weak link at all - it's just that it reproduces a sound which isn't what (some) people are after in the first place.

I suspect that what's needed - if those people are to find modelling useful - is for cab modelling to be developed to the point where the mic can be taken out of the equation, and the "listening point" set to about 5 feet away and three or four feet off-axis. That's a pretty huge ask, though, given the number of variables affecting the resulting audio.

Its impossible because you still need to listen through something that's not the guitar cab.

It does seem a fairly common thing that people who complain it's not as good are using lower end smaller monitors. Have seen it many times over the years, a common theme is 5" monitors being compared to much bigger guitar cabs.

digitalscream

guitarfishbay said:

digitalscream said:

The thing is, the IR isn't actually a weak link at all - it's just that it reproduces a sound which isn't what (some) people are after in the first place.

I suspect that what's needed - if those people are to find modelling useful - is for cab modelling to be developed to the point where the mic can be taken out of the equation, and the "listening point" set to about 5 feet away and three or four feet off-axis. That's a pretty huge ask, though, given the number of variables affecting the resulting audio.

Its impossible because you still need to listen through something that's not the guitar cab.

It does seem a fairly common thing that people who complain it's not as good are using lower end smaller monitors. Have seen it many times over the years, a common theme is 5" monitors being compared to much bigger guitar cabs.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I tried a pair of Alesis (I think) 5" monitors, and ended up with a pair of Tannoy 6" ones. They're not the best, but the low-end response is much more representative of the real thing. Surprisingly pleasant for normal listening, too, and Elite: Dangerous sounds absolutely phenomenal