Josh Smith - a great honest post

exocet

The truth is that most of these players would make more money from playing in a high standard covers band. Obviously that's not what they want to do but playing the blues will not pay the bills for most people.

cbellanga

I agree with some comments above that it just shed some light on the reality around trying to survive as a musician.

It's quite sad that arts in general are in this condition.. Independently of what's his style of music, it would be great if artists in general could improve and maintain their careers.

I'm not a pro but was quite busy a few years back, playing latin jazz in London and it was actually disgusting to see that on top of the usual struggle how the competition in order to get gigs affect people that otherwise would be focused in entertaining people.. 

57Deluxe

who?

digitalscream

cbellanga said:

I agree with some comments above that it just shed some light on the reality around trying to survive as a musician.

It's quite sad that arts in general are in this condition.. Independently of what's his style of music, it would be great if artists in general could improve and maintain their careers.

I'm not a pro but was quite busy a few years back, playing latin jazz in London and it was actually disgusting to see that on top of the usual struggle how the competition in order to get gigs affect people that otherwise would be focused in entertaining people.. 

How is it "disgusting"? What I don't get is why people seem to be of the opinion that someone running their own business as a musician (which is essentially what "a career in music" is) should somehow afford them a special status relative to other people starting their own business in any other industry.

Scrabbling around for work is a reality that everyone who's been self-employed knows, and only the insane (or perpetually poor) would ever do so with only a single product and a single customer, which is essentially what Josh is doing. He has one income stream - his original music - which is a recipe for disaster in any self-employed industry.

thomasross20

Who is this really a revelation for? Not me! It's why I studied engineering and chose to do guitar for fun in my spare time. Surely this isn't truly a revelation for anybody...

I've never heard of Josh.
And I agree with the 50 year old blues comment. 

That's also an interesting metric about 6k plays on Spotify giving you just under £12 in income - that is horrendous. Would a better way to do it be to release your one best track on these platforms then sell your cd on your website only? 

thomasross20

Also agree about good songs over just "extended ability"

Laughed at @HarrySeven 's post but also totally agree.. I find a lot of blues rather staid, predictable.. same with jazz.. even the same with the fusion players we see now - it's too "nice" (as somebody said) with too much formula-following and there's not enough "song" in there. I come back to Brian May here because he's often said he's not the must technical guitarist, and he couldn't play to fast moving changes... But he has helped craft some cracking songs with lots of dynamics, something a bit different and which perks the ear up. 

Also, to be honest, I rarely listen to instrumental stuff now - I've always preferred a bit of vocals to go with music.

cbellanga

digitalscream said:

cbellanga said:

I agree with some comments above that it just shed some light on the reality around trying to survive as a musician.

It's quite sad that arts in general are in this condition.. Independently of what's his style of music, it would be great if artists in general could improve and maintain their careers.

I'm not a pro but was quite busy a few years back, playing latin jazz in London and it was actually disgusting to see that on top of the usual struggle how the competition in order to get gigs affect people that otherwise would be focused in entertaining people.. 

How is it "disgusting"? What I don't get is why people seem to be of the opinion that someone running their own business as a musician (which is essentially what "a career in music" is) should somehow afford them a special status relative to other people starting their own business in any other industry.

Scrabbling around for work is a reality that everyone who's been self-employed knows, and only the insane (or perpetually poor) would ever do so with only a single product and a single customer, which is essentially what Josh is doing. He has one income stream - his original music - which is a recipe for disaster in any self-employed industry.

The experience I had was related to some of the other bands playing in the same niche were cutting deals with the promoters in a not very transparent way - ie they would play for free or for almost nothing to get the gig and the promoter would keep the money.. or the promoter would disregard an agreement reg. what the venue would pay for the band ..

I understand your point and agree with working hard as any other industry, maybe I was naive coming in and realising that things are a bit more complicated. 

underdog

I'd advise him to form a band with a view to writing and releasing some good songs that people want to sing along to. It's the way musicians have always made money. 

Good guitarists will only appeal to a percentage of guitar players, everyone loves a good song, builders, single parents, solicitors, kids etc, just want something we like signing along with.

shaunm

thomasross20 said:

Who is this really a revelation for? Not me! It's why I studied engineering and chose to do guitar for fun in my spare time. Surely this isn't truly a revelation for anybody...

I've never heard of Josh.
And I agree with the 50 year old blues comment. 

That's also an interesting metric about 6k plays on Spotify giving you just under £12 in income - that is horrendous. Would a better way to do it be to release your one best track on these platforms then sell your cd on your website only? 

In theory yes but the truth is a lot of people will not pay for an album anymore when they pay £10 a month to spotify. Crap though. Lucky for us we do not rely on money from the band. We haven't made a loss on the album thanks to other outlets but jesus, £11.74 - It seems due to the volume of music available these days that as a product its not valuable. 

Strat54

Maybe they can all go live in Joe's houses in old age.....I think he's got one on each coast now.

Evilmags

Had a listen on you tube. Lovely player, but their are a lot of people who play like that in the US. The only stand put player I can think of in the blues genre is Derek Trucks. I like Blues and would happily pay to watch a gig or watch him at a festival,  but unless you are in a band or have real heritage that style is done by too many players. At least in the US gigs are popular and common. Small and medium acts are very hard to do in the UK because venue costs are ridiculous. 

shaunm

It's a valid question as to how Joe has done what he has done? He is much the same as Matt and Josh and the same age.  

Gary Clark jr seems to be doing much better and seems more credible. 

DefaultM

I have literally no idea who this person is and I'm on youtube every day looking at guitar videos.

impmann

I have no idea who this guy is but if you go after the "guitarists guitar player" dollar then you are never going to earn any money. I tried to watch that video with Jobo - but in my opinion.. modern "blues" is terrible and most of it is self-indulgent twaddle that makes 1970s Prog seem reasonable. Technically it was "great" and he can play stuff that I can't... but its also stuff that I don't want to play or listen to.

Frankly if his business model isn't working its time to change it. Its the same as any small business where you are working for yourself - if they funds ain't paying the bills then its time to try something else. Yes, its interesting to read, but it does come across as a bit of a whine...

As has been said a USP or better still some SONGS that connect to large numbers of people would be a better thing to concentrate on. Chris Rea was broke for years until he went 'mainstream' with some pop stuff - with a blues tinge - but the point was they were great, catchy songs that the pissed bloke in a pub will sing along with etc. Thats one way...

Or if he's as great as folks say - get cracking on YouTube. Its not done *he who cannot be named* any harm, and I guarantee that *he who cannot be named* makes a tidy sum. But its all about being prolific - get involved with many different channels, demos, tuition stuff... heck, sell washing machines if it pays the bills. And be brazen about it - yes, some folks will be mean about you (refer *he who cannot be named*) but frankly we all gotta eat.

If its not working, then its time to do something else... history is littered with names of great guitar players who never made enough money. Its sad, but if you keep doing the same thing expecting a different result then that is the definition of insanity.

clarkefan

Not hearing any whining personally, or any entitlement, or any reason to call him a tosser.  I'm hearing upset and disillusionment coming from someone who feels he is failing.

Brave stuff in the showbiz industry where appearance is everything and you're not ever supposed to "lift the veil".  Good luck to him.

Teetonetal

impmann said:

If its not working, then its time to do something else... history is littered with names of great guitar players who never made enough money. Its sad, but if you keep doing the same thing expecting a different result then that is the definition of insanity.

A particular affliction which artists seem to suffer from. Staying true to oneself vs making money. 

shaunm

Reading it again he is making a point that it is not specifically about money but it is asking the question does anyone have any ideas on how he can get to play more venues. 

It is somewhat harsh but is the correct answer make more records that people want to buy? He is totally disalusioned with the industry side of things (as is Matt Schofield reading his comments) but isn't that the most important part of you are to earn a living from it? 

digitalscream

shaunm said:

Reading it again he is making a point that it is not specifically about money but it is asking the question does anyone have any ideas on how he can get to play more venues. 

It is somewhat harsh but is the correct answer make more records that people want to buy? He is totally disalusioned with the industry side of things (as is Matt Schofield reading his comments) but isn't that the most important part of you are to earn a living from it? 

Yep - but, more than that, breaking into "being a musician" these days involves 80% management and 20% playing, if that. Rob Chapman's band don't have any trouble packing out venues all across Europe...why? It's not because they're amazing (although they're all very good musicians), but rather because they all put a huge amount of effort into social media and YouTube. You'll probably find that the vast majority of their time is spent making and editing videos, not writing or playing music.

That's the trade-off for being in control of your own destiny (as opposed to the days of yore, when a label took care of all that stuff and you just had to show up and play or record when told to). It's an 18hr/day job, minimum.

dindude

digitalscream said:

shaunm said:

Reading it again he is making a point that it is not specifically about money but it is asking the question does anyone have any ideas on how he can get to play more venues. 

It is somewhat harsh but is the correct answer make more records that people want to buy? He is totally disalusioned with the industry side of things (as is Matt Schofield reading his comments) but isn't that the most important part of you are to earn a living from it? 

Yep - but, more than that, breaking into "being a musician" these days involves 80% management and 20% playing, if that. Rob Chapman's band don't have any trouble packing out venues all across Europe...why? It's not because they're amazing (although they're all very good musicians), but rather because they all put a huge amount of effort into social media and YouTube. You'll probably find that the vast majority of their time is spent making and editing videos, not writing or playing music.

That's the trade-off for being in control of your own destiny (as opposed to the days of yore, when a label took care of all that stuff and you just had to show up and play or record when told to). It's an 18hr/day job, minimum.

I kinda agree, buy there still needs to be some substance behind the online presence. If we take Mary Spender as an example, its almost shameless how she has buit up her online image. For example the making of a whole video about how she asked John Mayer a female perspective question at NAMM, big friggen deal. And behind it is no more than an average open-mic night talent. This is you tube presence first, music second, which is fine if youre a reviewer only, but if you want a rounded musically career you need to have some talent behind you.

professorben

Wow so I don't think I'm going out on a limb here by saying the vast majority of TFB members are white middle aged guitarists.....I know I am. 

Thats Josh Smiths target audience and must if us don't even know who he is!!!

What this guy needs is either a shit hot agent/manager getting him those support slots and placements or a really really good songwriter to buddy up with. 

When your target market don't know who you are, it's time to reasses. 

I tried to to make a living from guitar (teaching) but couldn't, either due to my attitude or my business acumen, I'm fairly sure my playing and teaching were pretty good given the students I had progressed well. 

So I sucked it up and retrained. 

Now happier than ever, putting food on the table paying bills and looking after my family, guitar is still a passion, but one I can enjoy with no stresses.