Who's got a small name independent guitar?

CHrisP86

I picked up a new Feline Lion at the weekend.

The buying experience is also sometimes over looked but something added that you can't really put a price on.  Being involved in the process and learning a little about what makes the guitar and how the sound can be tweaked is brilliant.

Can you imagine how much it would cost to sit down with Paul Reed Smith and design you ideal guitar!

crunchman

CHrisP86 said:

Can you imagine how much it would cost to sit down with Paul Reed Smith and design you ideal guitar!

I get the impression that Paul Reed Smith is more of a Steve Jobs type who will tell you what your ideal guitar is whether you like it or not.

OilCityPickups

crunchman said:

CHrisP86 said:

Can you imagine how much it would cost to sit down with Paul Reed Smith and design you ideal guitar!

I get the impression that Paul Reed Smith is more of a Steve Jobs type who will tell you what your ideal guitar is whether you like it or not.

I think you hit that nail on the head!

tone1

I've got an Angry Angus Strat.. I like having something a bit (lot) different..

digitalscream

TTony said:

fandango said:

Guitar & case cost £1,100.

When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. 

1.  You're not going to get a "proper" luthier made guitar for £1100.  They're losing money on anything under £2500 if they're building properly.  For £1100 you got a partsa.

2.  To lose £1500, you must have spent close to £1000 on fixing it.  For that sort of problems, I'd have been getting a refund, or getting him to fix it.


That sort of thing gets the small builder industry a bad name.  No doubt the bad 'uns exist, but there are enough good ones around, with customer testimonials to support them, if you choose carefully.

Not sure I entirely agree with that. Most of Jaden's offerings (below the absolute top-end) came in at £1200-£1800, and he was doing pretty well until the bottom fell out...mostly selling to Europe, mind.

As for the OP, I have a pair of Jaden's Modern Ts (Tele-shaped) which were made specifically to my spec, and they're absolutely the best guitars I could've asked for. Unlike every other guitar I've had, I've not once considered selling either of them...and I never will.

As everyone else has said, though, don't buy custom if you're even going to consider selling it; nobody else is going to want to pay for a guitar that only fits your hands.

TimmyO

crunchman said:

There is a bit of a hierarchy of small UK builders.  At the top of it you have someone like Patrick Eggle who does have some genuine name recognition - but the price is high (around £4,000 I think).

There are other people with very good reputations like Feline, Rob Williams, Damian Probett, and Martyn Booth who will not be cheap either.

Lower down the price scale, you have up and coming people, or people who aren't completely dependent on it financially - it's a hobby or sideline that brings in a little bit of cash.   Some of these guys make really good guitars, but others in this price range cut corners.  The problem is telling which is which.

If you do go for one the better known builders you will probably have better resale value than with the cheaper builders - although not as good as if you spent the same money on a Custom Shop Gibson or Fender.

Even in that short list there are some who don't do their own finishing, some who don't do their own woodwork, and iirc some who don't do their own either of those things, so that also contributes to cost 

ArchtopDave

If you want a guitar from an independent guitar maker, then you've potentially got two choices.

 If he, or she, has some stock, then you can buy something that already exists (you can try it out first to see that it's what you want).
 If you are going to order a guitar to be made, then you really need to think of it as starting as a blank sheet of paper, even if you are planning on getting a model that the guitar maker already makes. This should at least make you think about as many details of the guitar as possible, and, if you run over the spec with the maker, then they can ask you about the bits that you haven't thought of.

I've made 3 guitars in the past under the guidance of Mark Bailey, and I'm currently having a guitar made by him. For the latter, I made up a detailed spec of what I wanted, which is basically a Thinline Tele but with some detail from 2 other guitars. I spent 2 hours with him going over the spec, whilst he did a detailed drawing. There were still some details, that he brought up, which I hadn't considered, and since then there is one minor detail which I realised we hadn't discussed.

As others have said, forget about resale value. You want to look to have a guitar that you will want to keep long term.

Telejester

OP have you ever checked out guitars by Ron Thorn ? If you haven't , go take a look at his website.

fandango

TTony said:

fandango said:

Guitar & case cost £1,100.

When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. 

1.  You're not going to get a "proper" luthier made guitar for £1100.  They're losing money on anything under £2500 if they're building properly.  For £1100 you got a partsa.

2.  To lose £1500, you must have spent close to £1000 on fixing it.  For that sort of problems, I'd have been getting a refund, or getting him to fix it.


That sort of thing gets the small builder industry a bad name.  No doubt the bad 'uns exist, but there are enough good ones around, with customer testimonials to support them, if you choose carefully.

To fill in a little bit of detail. It wasn't a custom job. It was one already made, although the scratchplate was actually custom. I wasn't looking for a blingy guitar, but I was looking for a korina guitar, and this was the only UK-based guy who made guitars with korina. So i wasnt into special burst finishes, fancy birdseye maple or suchlike. This was a simple gibson-style hardtail. Never had a problem with the woodwork, the tuners, frets or choice of pickups (seymour duncans).

The lack of quality showed itself in duff pickup springs which I had replaced, and the pickups were likely either used pickups or "seconds", and the quality of the electrics. Someone mentioned about taking it back, but I didn't get to that point until 2 or so years after buying.

The maker should have spent a bit more effort marking out the bridge and tailpiece (think: measure twice cut once), and he should have spent a couple of quid more on a better tailpiece, and then have sorted out his soldering (its not hard). It wouldnt have taken much to have built it properly in the first instance, but making it good as an aftermarket task ruined it for me.

Lovely tone, great versatility and played like butter loved the way it played. Great neck finish, feel and profile to the neck, so no issues there. Body shape was very very comfortable, and in natural finished korina ticked a few boxes. It's just that the tailpiece worked loose just by looking at it.

In essence it was the finishing items that marred the experience.

I appreciate the effort that goes into Feline guitars - they look stunning, but when i bought the above mentioned guitar, i just didnt want anything blingy and looking a million dollars. I just wanted a 'decent', straight down the line guitar, I could cut my teeth on.

With sincere apologies to guitar makers worldwide, I think some of the finishes/finishing touches are overkill for me. I would have appreciated more effort into the unseen build quality. Anyway nothing ventured, nothing gained, and I'm older and wiser about 'boutique' and small scale builders.

webrthomson

I've done custom builds a few times - I'm lucky enough to have custom stuff from Feline, Kemp, Manson's and currently incoming from Ken Lawrence. I have had the good fortune to have had my guitars created by a number of individuals that are 100% dedicated to the art of creating wonderful guitars.

Honestly I can't sing their praises loudly enough; Jonathan @FelineGuitars, Matt @KempGuitars and Tim / Adrian at Manson's were all amazing, helpful and all seemed to immediately understand what I was shooting for and could tell me where there were pitfalls in some of my ideas were from their own experience.

So I have a few suggestions:

Know what you want and pick a builder that has some appreciation for that type of guitar - so when I wanted a LP style guitar - I had some ideas about what I did and didn't like and I knew that Feline do some very fine guitars in that style - when the Gibson custom shop didn't float my boat - I knew I could talk through what I wanted with Jonathan and we would get to where I wanted to go! They boys at Feline knocked it out the park with that guitar

You need to know what works for you, from wood choice to hardware, neck profiles, nut width, scale length, radius etc. As mentioned above this does not work well for beginners, too much understanding of what works for you is required, something by definition beginners do not have. I was lucky in this respect my first custom guitar was made by Hugh Manson in 1991 and he designed it for me by reference to stuff I'd played or could play and interpreted what I wanted from that.

Know your own mind but listen to the builder - you know where you want to go but the but the builder has more experience than you! If they tell you something is going to be a bad idea they are almost certainly right!

Be realistic about what it's going to cost - this is a one off item made by hand in an expensive 1st world country - it's not going to be cheap, taxes are high on all the bits and time is the most expensive commodity of all in a build. You might only get to do this a once, make sure you budget for what you actually want and don't compromise on the cost - if needs be save a bit more and get exactly what you want.

Enjoy the experience and relish the guitar that you end up with

skaguitar

I have 3 guitars built by uk luthiers... and they are all as good in quality and tone as any of the 'branded' guitars out there.
I agree that resale value may not be anywhere near as good as the big brands....but I'd like to ask this...
if I were to put this guitar in the classifieds

http://imgur.com/a/qkITO

quartersawn maple neck 
it has a creamery humbucker in the neck and a joce dominger 11 pole bridge pick up
all quality hardware

how much would you say was a fair price..?

I'm just interested as to what people's perceptions of value are so no tricks or anything...

Chalky

@webrthomson said "You need to know what works for you, from wood choice to hardware, neck profiles, nut width, scale length, radius etc. As mentioned above this does not work well for beginners, too much understanding of what works for you is required, something by definition beginners do not have. I was lucky in this respect my first custom guitar was made by Hugh Manson in 1991 and he designed it for me by reference to stuff I'd played or could play and interpreted what I wanted from that."

This is the part that puts me off. I couldn't spec it.  Like going to a top restaurant, I want them to recommend the food and wine based on an indication of what I fancy, not me spec all the ingredients and details of the dishes or wine.  What's the point of paying top dollar if all they are doing is following orders?

danishbacon

A lot to take in here and more useful advice than I was expecting, thank you. Tomorrow is the big day - will come back with updates. 

webrthomson

Chalky said:

@webrthomson said "You need to know what works for you, from wood choice to hardware, neck profiles, nut width, scale length, radius etc. As mentioned above this does not work well for beginners, too much understanding of what works for you is required, something by definition beginners do not have. I was lucky in this respect my first custom guitar was made by Hugh Manson in 1991 and he designed it for me by reference to stuff I'd played or could play and interpreted what I wanted from that."

This is the part that puts me off. I couldn't spec it.  Like going to a top restaurant, I want them to recommend the food and wine based on an indication of what I fancy, not me spec all the ingredients and details of the dishes or wine.  What's the point of paying top dollar if all they are doing is following orders?

That's a fair point but I bet you have some ideas about what works for you when you are asked about specific criteria - necks are a prime example - so when asked about a neck, to know what you like, you need to consider:

1. Finger board material
2. Radius
3. Fret size
4. Fret material
5. Back wood
6. Scale length
7. Nut width
8. Nut material
9. Headstock tilt
10. String trees
11. Locking tuners
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck
13. Tuners make
14. Front to back depth
15. Carve
16. Inverted headstock
    

Which seems like a lot, but what you realise as you play guitars is that different things matter to different people - so you rationalise it to the things you care about. So for me the list looks like this:

1. Finger board material - don't like maple, other than that don't really care
2. Radius not less that 9 not greater that 16 - other than that don't really care
3. Fret size - don't really care - light touch I can play anything
4. Fret material - don't care - steel is a bit brighter
5. Back wood - maple or Mahogany
6. Scale length - don't really care, 24.75, 25 or 25.5 can play them all
7. Nut width - really care - I've got fat hands I like a 45mm nut, can't play less that 43mm
8. Nut material - don't care
9. Headstock tilt - don't care
10. String trees - don't care
11. Locking tuners - prefer non-locking
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck - don't care
13. Tuners make - Gotoh 510's - I'm anal about this
14. Front to back depth - anything from 19mm - 22mm a the first fret up to 22-24mm at the 12th
    
15. Carve - generally a C
    
16. Inverted headstock - don't care
    

So after a quick conversation with your builder of choice, with me anyway, they would know that this is what I care about:

1. Finger board material - not maple
2. Radius
   
3. Fret size
4. Fret material
5. Back wood - maple or Mahogany
6. Scale length
7. Nut width - really care - I've got fat hands I like a 45mm nut, can't play less that 43mm
8. Nut material
   
9. Headstock tilt
   
10. String trees
    
11. Locking tuners - prefer non-locking
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck
    
13. Tuners make - Gotoh 510's - I'm anal about this
14. Front to back depth - anything from 19mm - 22mm a the first fret up to 22-24mm at the 12th
    
15. Carve - generally a C
    
16. Inverted headstock

So from our original list I care about only 7/15 and even then I only really care about 3/15 the rest they can roll with.

TBH I'm sure that you could leave the detail up to many of the builders on this board, depends on what you want I guess, some builds I want to manage every details and some I don't. I'm in for one of Felines 25th builds and the only thing I chose was the colour, I've already recently got a Lion Supreme and I spec'ed pretty much everything to the last detail.

Being guitar players we normally have strong opinions about what we like and they generally out

Chalky

webrthomson said:

Chalky said:

@webrthomson said "You need to know what works for you, from wood choice to hardware, neck profiles, nut width, scale length, radius etc. As mentioned above this does not work well for beginners, too much understanding of what works for you is required, something by definition beginners do not have. I was lucky in this respect my first custom guitar was made by Hugh Manson in 1991 and he designed it for me by reference to stuff I'd played or could play and interpreted what I wanted from that."

This is the part that puts me off. I couldn't spec it.  Like going to a top restaurant, I want them to recommend the food and wine based on an indication of what I fancy, not me spec all the ingredients and details of the dishes or wine.  What's the point of paying top dollar if all they are doing is following orders?

That's a fair point but I bet you have some ideas about what works for you when you are asked about specific criteria - necks are a prime example - so when asked about a neck, to know what you like, you need to consider:

1. Finger board material
2. Radius
3. Fret size
4. Fret material
5. Back wood
6. Scale length
7. Nut width
8. Nut material
9. Headstock tilt
10. String trees
11. Locking tuners
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck
13. Tuners make
14. Front to back depth
15. Carve
16. Inverted headstock
    

Which seems like a lot, but what you realise as you play guitars is that different things matter to different people - so you rationalise it to the things you care about. So for me the list looks like this:

1. Finger board material - don't like maple, other than that don't really care
2. Radius not less that 9 not greater that 16 - other than that don't really care
3. Fret size - don't really care - light touch I can play anything
4. Fret material - don't care - steel is a bit brighter
5. Back wood - maple or Mahogany
6. Scale length - don't really care, 24.75, 25 or 25.5 can play them all
7. Nut width - really care - I've got fat hands I like a 45mm nut, can't play less that 43mm
8. Nut material - don't care
9. Headstock tilt - don't care
10. String trees - don't care
11. Locking tuners - prefer non-locking
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck - don't care
13. Tuners make - Gotoh 510's - I'm anal about this
14. Front to back depth - anything from 19mm - 22mm a the first fret up to 22-24mm at the 12th
    
15. Carve - generally a C
    
16. Inverted headstock - don't care
    

So after a quick conversation with your builder of choice, with me anyway, they would know that this is what I care about:

1. Finger board material - not maple
2. Radius
   
3. Fret size
4. Fret material
5. Back wood - maple or Mahogany
6. Scale length
7. Nut width - really care - I've got fat hands I like a 45mm nut, can't play less that 43mm
8. Nut material
   
9. Headstock tilt
   
10. String trees
    
11. Locking tuners - prefer non-locking
12. Bolt on / Set neck / Thru neck
    
13. Tuners make - Gotoh 510's - I'm anal about this
14. Front to back depth - anything from 19mm - 22mm a the first fret up to 22-24mm at the 12th
    
15. Carve - generally a C
    
16. Inverted headstock

So from our original list I care about only 7/15 and even then I only really care about 3/15 the rest they can roll with.

TBH I'm sure that you could leave the detail up to many of the builders on this board, depends on what you want I guess, some builds I want to manage every details and some I don't. I'm in for one of Felines 25th builds and the only thing I chose was the colour, I've already recently got a Lion Supreme and I spec'ed pretty much everything to the last detail.

Being guitar players we normally have strong opinions about what we like and they generally out

All good sensible points.  I don't think I'm a normal guitar player then as having many guitars probably means I don't have strong opinions. Last night I had a hour before bed playing my Collings Soco Deluxe, an old plain Fender Strat, and a Harley Benton SC450 and enjoyed each in their own way. I'd much rather play the guitar to decide if I like it, rather than spec it.  

GoldenEraGuitars

I owned a Jaden Rose Salvo. £1100 luthier made and was utterly amazing. It wasn't an exotic wood finished guitar so obviously the price point was lower but it was still made from scratch.

HarrySeven

I was lucky to acquire one of the very few electric solidbodies made by Ralph Bown (builder to the well-heeled acoustic cognoscenti).

It's basically an extremely well-made Brian May black Red Special replica with some tweaks, commissioned by someone in the '90's, IIRC.

Stunning guitar, must have originally cost an arm and a leg. I certainly didn't lose any limbs when I purchased it. Resale value? Minimal - certainly sub-£500. Ridiculous really.

At one point, the same could be said of JayDee 6 strings. Back in the '90's and early '00's, I amassed a collection of John's early non-Hooligan guitars (primarily SGs, Explorers and Vees). All were truly great quality. All were sub-£300. Just wrong. 

mburekenge

Love my bravewood s type. Has all the features i wanted from fender custom shop at a far more sensible price.

Massive 57 les paul style neck profile with a nice slab of rosewood? Check. Perfectly set up 6105 frets. 12 radius? Check. My favourouite overwound antiquities? Check. Lovely played in vibe from the level of distressing.

I've played loads of cs strats over the years. Uniformly great with some that were outstanding.

Not bashing the fender custom shop... i have a page era cs tele that is outstanding.

But if you are going old school style fender id not hesitate to go Bravewood.

I prefer vintage style guitars, but if i was going for a vintage inspired/modern featured guitar, it would be Gray Guitars for me.

OilCityPickups

fandango said:

TTony said:

fandango said:

Guitar & case cost £1,100.

When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. 

1.  You're not going to get a "proper" luthier made guitar for £1100.  They're losing money on anything under £2500 if they're building properly.  For £1100 you got a partsa.

2.  To lose £1500, you must have spent close to £1000 on fixing it.  For that sort of problems, I'd have been getting a refund, or getting him to fix it.


That sort of thing gets the small builder industry a bad name.  No doubt the bad 'uns exist, but there are enough good ones around, with customer testimonials to support them, if you choose carefully.

To fill in a little bit of detail. It wasn't a custom job. It was one already made, although the scratchplate was actually custom. I wasn't looking for a blingy guitar, but I was looking for a korina guitar, and this was the only UK-based guy who made guitars with korina. So i wasnt into special burst finishes, fancy birdseye maple or suchlike. This was a simple gibson-style hardtail. Never had a problem with the woodwork, the tuners, frets or choice of pickups (seymour duncans).

The lack of quality showed itself in duff pickup springs which I had replaced, and the pickups were likely either used pickups or "seconds", and the quality of the electrics. Someone mentioned about taking it back, but I didn't get to that point until 2 or so years after buying.

The maker should have spent a bit more effort marking out the bridge and tailpiece (think: measure twice cut once), and he should have spent a couple of quid more on a better tailpiece, and then have sorted out his soldering (its not hard). It wouldnt have taken much to have built it properly in the first instance, but making it good as an aftermarket task ruined it for me.

Lovely tone, great versatility and played like butter loved the way it played. Great neck finish, feel and profile to the neck, so no issues there. Body shape was very very comfortable, and in natural finished korina ticked a few boxes. It's just that the tailpiece worked loose just by looking at it.

In essence it was the finishing items that marred the experience.

I appreciate the effort that goes into Feline guitars - they look stunning, but when i bought the above mentioned guitar, i just didnt want anything blingy and looking a million dollars. I just wanted a 'decent', straight down the line guitar, I could cut my teeth on.

With sincere apologies to guitar makers worldwide, I think some of the finishes/finishing touches are overkill for me. I would have appreciated more effort into the unseen build quality. Anyway nothing ventured, nothing gained, and I'm older and wiser about 'boutique' and small scale builders.

Feline guitars make many instruments that are not at all 'blingy' ... look at their 'Juniors' etc. It's really only the top of the range 'Lions' that have the bells and whistles. The internal attention to detail is second to none, and as far as hardware etc, the likes of Tonepro bridges and my own Masterwound or Bare Knuckle pickups should tell you the level of hardware quality fitted. 
I supply pickups to many leading UK luthiers from Carillion guitars to Feline and Blackmachine, and all of these have attention to detail that surpass the best US Custom shop models. I suppose I'm in a fairly privileged position in having had the opportunity to try a lot of UK made customs, and have to say that I think your experience is unusual. 

Regarding price, I will say that any luthier in the UK that is selling below the £1500 price bracket is cutting corners somewhere, especially in the current economic climate. Many small makers pop up, get their economic sums wrong, try to pump out loss leaders to get market penetration then fold when they realise they are working for nothing. This happens in my own field of pickup making too ... 
My recommendation is to look for companies that have been around a while, ones with premises you can visit and try their instruments, and ones who don't have rose tinted spectacles on as far as pricing. 

webrthomson

Chalky said:

All good sensible points.  I don't think I'm a normal guitar player then as having many guitars probably means I don't have strong opinions. Last night I had a hour before bed playing my Collings Soco Deluxe, an old plain Fender Strat, and a Harley Benton SC450 and enjoyed each in their own way. I'd much rather play the guitar to decide if I like it, rather than spec it.  

For me a custom is an amalgam of guitars so its elements come from guitar that I've already got, indeed I've actually sent guitar to builders and said - I want that neck carve / cut away shape / etc. off that guitar.

I totally get wanting to feel it in your hand though - sometime you just pick up a guitar and say to yourself "hell yes, this is good" - I did that with a LP junior, not a guitar that I would have every thought to custom order in a million years. Picked it up in a Guitar shop in the US and was amazed!

I guess the guitars at Feline are a middle ground where you could try and select what you like for a build from existing guitars