Who's got a small name independent guitar?

monofin

I have a PR Guitars SCR standard. Serial no. 0001. Bought it a a birthyear guitar for my son - 2009. Would never sell it, being a great guitar helps that sentiment

FelineGuitars

Usually, if someone is having something built you'd hope that it would be something that they would want to keep, but you have to accept that some people change their minds and have a shuffle of their collection.

It takes time till people trust a brand to the extent that the resale value is maintained. Having said that there are some folks with 4,5 or 6 of my builds that they have scooped up when others have had moments of indecision

Maybe it is a question of who can deliver something of the standard you were hoping for.

clarkefan

The problem for me is, regardless of how flush I am now, there might come a time when I need 2 grand and need to sell whatever I've got to get it, so if I tie up money in something now it needs to be something I can liquidate quickly if necessary.

Sucks, but I've had this happen (when a Tele paid the rent one month). Took a bath (thank you Macaris) but rent paid and painful lesson learned.

prh777

<a data-flickr-embed="true"  href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/130522169@N06/36040213174/in/dateposted-public/" title="Purple Ronnie on tour"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4385/36040213174_055f390bb7_k.jpg" width="1365" height="2048" alt="Purple Ronnie on tour"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

think of Purple Ronnie as a gateway drug.  He came on tour.

danishbacon

Iamnobody said:

hoveguitarguy said:

get a damien probett guitar - the first and last guitar you will ever need

They might be the best playing guitar money can buy for all I know - but the hybrid/bastard son of classics design does nothing for me. 

OP's question is difficult - the main reason (I would think) most people choose a guitar from a small builder would be to go the custom route and have some input into the spec.

Buying a completed model takes that input away, but also removes the risk of the unknown. 

Tricky decision...do they play better than other volume produced guitars at the same price? Do you like the look of them?

Re: design, I feel the same. If it's a new design, I like to see a new design, halfway mixes don't do it for me and radical tweaks in build can detract from my perception of the instrument. Sure, a well shaved neck heel can make axxxxesss to the upper frets a breeze, but are you really working for it? traditional designs have worked well for decades and I respect that some players need gear the push boundaries, but as someone who like to think of tone and playing more traditionally (if there is such a thing) I like things to stick to what's has worked. I understand the urge that reinventing the wheel and what it does to music (see king gizzard's microtonal stuff), but there must be a reason why musicians keep going back to the trusty old bunch. 

The allure of a luthier built instrument in this case is, knowing the work personally and already owning a set of hand built pickups, also having played the specific guitar in question. I'm not particularly fussed about having input in the build to be honest, trusting that the instrument is made with players in mind. If looking for something highly specific or unique, I may be in a different position altogether but it's not something I've ever considered seriously. 

With respect to this guitar vs mass produced one, we're talking far less money new than a high end custom shop whatever. I cannot stand the custom shop logo on back of headstocks much like the les Paul hologram, and at the price range I'm considering, I think that the link between myself, guitar, luthier is a bit more solid on these lines than just another mass produced high end guitar. But that is something that actually matters to me.

danishbacon

Sassafras said:

If you like vintage Strats but don't want to pay vintage money, you could do worse than getting a Bravewood.

Interesting builds. Are they all scratch builds or does he work with neck/body blanks? I saw pickups are bare knuckle or others

danishbacon

FelineGuitars said:

Usually, if someone is having something built you'd hope that it would be something that they would want to keep, but you have to accept that some people change their minds and have a shuffle of their collection.

It takes time till people trust a brand to the extent that the resale value is maintained. Having said that there are some folks with 4,5 or 6 of my builds that they have scooped up when others have had moments of indecision

Maybe it is a question of who can deliver something of the standard you were hoping for.

That's a very valid consideration. I've not any concerns with this respect, but have since taken up on the suggestion of @earwighoney and spoken to two owners just to get some feedback on long term use. I've never seen one for sale second hand. 

"the guitars are top notch, and it is one of my guitars that doesn't live in a case"

"best you can get"

danishbacon

clarkefan said:

The problem for me is, regardless of how flush I am now, there might come a time when I need 2 grand and need to sell whatever I've got to get it, so if I tie up money in something now it needs to be something I can liquidate quickly if necessary.

Sucks, but I've had this happen (when a Tele paid the rent one month). Took a bath (thank you Macaris) but rent paid and painful lesson learned.

This is always a concern with high ticket things, no way around it in this case though. Either fulfill or move on. 

danishbacon

prh777 said:

<a data-flickr-embed="true"  href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/130522169@N06/36040213174/in/dateposted-public/" title="Purple Ronnie on tour"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4385/36040213174_055f390bb7_k.jpg" width="1365" height="2048" alt="Purple Ronnie on tour"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

think of Purple Ronnie as a gateway drug.  He came on tour.

That's a seriously nice colour

fandango

My experience with a small independent guitar maker is this:

Guitar & case cost £1,100. Gave it a try out, and all seemed okay. However the troubles started after I got home and had the guitar for a short while. It had to get a service. And no I wasn't going to take a day off and drive across the country, or trust the couriers. It was then I discovered the bloke couldn't solder to save his life. Took a few bob to get that sorted.

Eventually discovered the bridge was cheaper than anything that Jack McCheap could knock out and kept loosening. Cost me a £££ to fix, and signalled the end of any faith in the guitar.

For all the issues one might get with a Fender of a Gibson, I'm in no hurry to trust a small builder again after all the hassle I had with the guitar.

Finally managed to sell it via Reverb for a fraction of what I paid. When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. Don't miss it one bit.

Don't buy such a guitar thinking you'll get your money back - you NEVER will. 

Caveat Emptor.

Sassafras

danishbacon said:

Sassafras said:

If you like vintage Strats but don't want to pay vintage money, you could do worse than getting a Bravewood.

Interesting builds. Are they all scratch builds or does he work with neck/body blanks? I saw pickups are bare knuckle or others

All from scratch. They really are excellent. I don't know if they hold they're value but I think his stuff his pretty sought after.

FelineGuitars

fandango said:

My experience with a small independent guitar maker is this:

Guitar & case cost £1,100. Gave it a try out, and all seemed okay. However the troubles started after I got home and had the guitar for a short while. It had to get a service. And no I wasn't going to take a day off and drive across the country, or trust the couriers. It was then I discovered the bloke couldn't solder to save his life. Took a few bob to get that sorted.

Eventually discovered the bridge was cheaper than anything that Jack McCheap could knock out and kept loosening. Cost me a £££ to fix, and signalled the end of any faith in the guitar.

For all the issues one might get with a Fender of a Gibson, I'm in no hurry to trust a small builder again after all the hassle I had with the guitar.

Finally managed to sell it via Reverb for a fraction of what I paid. When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. Don't miss it one bit.

Don't buy such a guitar thinking you'll get your money back - you NEVER will. 

Caveat Emptor.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience.

Sounds like it was built to a crazy low budget though - £1100 for a custom build by a "reputable craftsperson" is way below mates rates.

In terms of hardware I go the opposite way - i tend to go maybe too high end but if you are paying £2.5K  and above you are gonna have good everything, and I won't compromise on using quality materials or parts, as the same amount of my time goes in regardless of the materials.
There are a lot of different skills involved in making guitars (soldering being one of them) but you do have to be on top of all of them if you are going to turn out a good product.

It does go to show that you have to choose your builder carefully though.

Many of the guys on here have checked out my customs when having repairs done by us, and also at Birmingham guitar show.

OilCityPickups

FelineGuitars said:

fandango said:

My experience with a small independent guitar maker is this:

Guitar & case cost £1,100. Gave it a try out, and all seemed okay. However the troubles started after I got home and had the guitar for a short while. It had to get a service. And no I wasn't going to take a day off and drive across the country, or trust the couriers. It was then I discovered the bloke couldn't solder to save his life. Took a few bob to get that sorted.

Eventually discovered the bridge was cheaper than anything that Jack McCheap could knock out and kept loosening. Cost me a £££ to fix, and signalled the end of any faith in the guitar.

For all the issues one might get with a Fender of a Gibson, I'm in no hurry to trust a small builder again after all the hassle I had with the guitar.

Finally managed to sell it via Reverb for a fraction of what I paid. When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. Don't miss it one bit.

Don't buy such a guitar thinking you'll get your money back - you NEVER will. 

Caveat Emptor.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience.

Sounds like it was built to a crazy low budget though - £1100 for a custom build by a "reputable craftsperson" is way below mates rates.

In terms of hardware I go the opposite way - i tend to go maybe too high end but if you are paying £2.5K  and above you are gonna have good everything, and I won't compromise on using quality materials or parts, as the same amount of my time goes in regardless of the materials.
There are a lot of different skills involved in making guitars (soldering being one of them) but you do have to be on top of all of them if you are going to turn out a good product.

It does go to show that you have to choose your builder carefully though.

Many of the guys on here have checked out my customs when having repairs done by us, and also at Birmingham guitar show.

It pay to handle a chap's wares before you hand over the money .... er whoops  ... that came out wrong :-)

TTony

fandango said:

Guitar & case cost £1,100.

When I factor in all the repairs, servicing, strings etc, I lost about £1500 in just over two years. 

1.  You're not going to get a "proper" luthier made guitar for £1100.  They're losing money on anything under £2500 if they're building properly.  For £1100 you got a partsa.

2.  To lose £1500, you must have spent close to £1000 on fixing it.  For that sort of problems, I'd have been getting a refund, or getting him to fix it.


That sort of thing gets the small builder industry a bad name.  No doubt the bad 'uns exist, but there are enough good ones around, with customer testimonials to support them, if you choose carefully.

xDottore

Another perspective, especially as regards Big Name v Luthier. I bought CS Strat last year for £2399. Guitar of Dreams. After not too long realised not Guitar of Dreams and that I didn't really care for Strats even though it was a very good guitar. Listed it here for £1699 which represented a pretty hefty drop in price, I thought. Almost nil interest. Dropped to £1,399 and sold within minutes.

Lessons: (a) not even a big name will necessarily save you from losing money on a sale and (b) I don't understand pricing! (c) er something wise about luthier built guitars but it's escaping me now. 

TTony

Dottore said:

and (b) I don't understand pricing! 

If you look at what that original £2399 price covered @Dottore, your sale price - whilst painful to you - is perhaps not as mad as it might seem.

Of the £2399, the dealer received £1999 once they've paid the VAT to HMRC.  They've then got their overheads to pay and a profit margin to earn before they pay Fender (who've then got all of their Corporate overheads, etc to pay).  Scarily, the *intrinsic" value of the guitar itself (ie parts, materials and labour on the guitar itself) is therefore probably less than £1k.

Look at it another way.  If you'd sold the guitar back to the dealer at £1399, they'd have resold it at £1399 +25% margin +20% VAT = £2100.  Would you have preferred to pay £2399 for brand new, or £2100 for s/h?  I'm guessing the former.

Coincidentally, the value to the dealer (ie what they'd have paid you) of the s/h guitar is probably closer to the £1k level again, allowing them to sell it on at £1500, covering their margin and VAT and creating sufficient gap between the prices of the new and s/h guitars.  This essentially creates a benchmark for private sales.  You'd not sell for less than £1k because the dealer would give you that, but no-one would pay more than £1500 because they can get one from a dealer (with guarantee, etc) for that.  Hence your sale price between those two prices.


The above illustrates why buying from a small independent luthier can be a good deal, financially.  No corporate overheads to cover, little of their direct overheads to pay, no VAT to pay (since most are below the threshold) and - as we all know - very little profit margin in their prices either!  

Hence what you pay for a one-off guitar is going to be far closer to its intrinsic value - you're paying for the guitar itself rather than also paying a share of the costs of the colouring-in department (marketing), expense accounts of the sales team, Cecil/Cecily in HR, various layers of middle management, etc, etc, etc.

Still get hammered on resale though!

Evilmags

I've got three. The Jade Rose was second hand on here and is a beast of a guitar. Got it at half price and it has a rosewood neck and cap. The Nathan Shepherd is a good guitar but has flaws (skinny frets on a 12-16 radius neck) that will be ironed out over time. The Morgan is the best sounding electric I have owned. (Bulldog pickups) but the neck is too much of a handful so the ORS Tiger sold me gets more action.

TimmyO

Evilmags said:

I've got three. The Jade Rose was second hand on here and is a beast of a guitar. Got it at half price and it has a rosewood neck and cap. The Nathan Shepherd is a good guitar but has flaws (skinny frets on a 12-16 radius neck) that will be ironed out over time. The Morgan is the best sounding electric I have owned. (Bulldog pickups) but the neck is too much of a handful so the ORS Tiger sold me gets more action.

Similarly my Morgan is the best sounding guitar I've encountered (and similarly has a beast of the neck profile, but that's what I wanted so no issue there)

It isn't my go-to though - the PRS DGT has that accolade, because it's 90% as good but more versatile and lighter. 
Interesting thing is that the Morgan whilst having a very different feel with that fat neck and snow-capped frets, I find it so easy to go back to, probably because I played it exclusively for a number of years, inc in my first gigging band (late starter ;-) ) 

As many have said, there is as good as zero chance of recouping money on a small-name custom (not an issue with mine, have never considered selling) and the other thing I think worth bearing in mind is that with zero constraints on spec it is easy to do something that seems sensible at the time, but isn't. It can be as simple as putting a control in a slightly awkward place through to making it look like Liberace's 'going out' handbag.  

crunchman

There is a bit of a hierarchy of small UK builders.  At the top of it you have someone like Patrick Eggle who does have some genuine name recognition - but the price is high (around £4,000 I think).

There are other people with very good reputations like Feline, Rob Williams, Damian Probett, and Martyn Booth who will not be cheap either.

Lower down the price scale, you have up and coming people, or people who aren't completely dependent on it financially - it's a hobby or sideline that brings in a little bit of cash.   Some of these guys make really good guitars, but others in this price range cut corners.  The problem is telling which is which.

If you do go for one the better known builders you will probably have better resale value than with the cheaper builders - although not as good as if you spent the same money on a Custom Shop Gibson or Fender.

xDottore

TTony said:

Dottore said:

and (b) I don't understand pricing! 

If you look at what that original £2399 price covered @Dottore, your sale price - whilst painful to you - is perhaps not as mad as it might seem.

Of the £2399, the dealer received £1999 once they've paid the VAT to HMRC.  They've then got their overheads to pay and a profit margin to earn before they pay Fender (who've then got all of their Corporate overheads, etc to pay).  Scarily, the *intrinsic" value of the guitar itself (ie parts, materials and labour on the guitar itself) is therefore probably less than £1k.

Look at it another way.  If you'd sold the guitar back to the dealer at £1399, they'd have resold it at £1399 +25% margin +20% VAT = £2100.  Would you have preferred to pay £2399 for brand new, or £2100 for s/h?  I'm guessing the former.

Coincidentally, the value to the dealer (ie what they'd have paid you) of the s/h guitar is probably closer to the £1k level again, allowing them to sell it on at £1500, covering their margin and VAT and creating sufficient gap between the prices of the new and s/h guitars.  This essentially creates a benchmark for private sales.  You'd not sell for less than £1k because the dealer would give you that, but no-one would pay more than £1500 because they can get one from a dealer (with guarantee, etc) for that.  Hence your sale price between those two prices.


The above illustrates why buying from a small independent luthier can be a good deal, financially.  No corporate overheads to cover, little of their direct overheads to pay, no VAT to pay (since most are below the threshold) and - as we all know - very little profit margin in their prices either!  

Hence what you pay for a one-off guitar is going to be far closer to its intrinsic value - you're paying for the guitar itself rather than also paying a share of the costs of the colouring-in department (marketing), expense accounts of the sales team, Cecil/Cecily in HR, various layers of middle management, etc, etc, etc.

Still get hammered on resale though!

Now I understand pricing ;-) Thanks for that, it was very helpful and very clearly explains the difference between £1699 and £1399. As a wild stab, @TTony , I'm guessing you have some experience on the retail side of guitars?