Stolen guitar in Cash Generator - this one's personal

DiscoStu

Popped in to my local Cash Generator today for the first time in years and spotted....

ONE OF MY OWN GUITARS!!!
It took me a moment to take it all in then I started taking photos before speaking to the manager.

In a nutshell, I loaned a guitar last year to a guy I know who had moved back home as he had the chance at a band and didn't have any gear up here. He really liked it so when I decided to sell it a couple of months ago I gave him first refusal as he still had it on loan. He gave me half the money mid July and said he'd give me the rest the following week but didn't. He has since moved to Glasgow.

So when I first saw the Godin Exit-22 hanging on the shop wall I thought 'oh, that's a guitar like mine, you don't see many of those about', but then I noticed it also had been modified with a Seymour Duncan P-Rails with Triple-Shot mounting ring at the bridge and thought 'what are the chances?'. And then the penny dropped. It's a natural wood finish and has the same grain pattern and identical small knot above the bridge because IT'S MY BLOODY GUITAR.

Shop Assistant wasn't interested in what I had to say so got the manager out. I told him it was mine and could he remove it from sale but he said he could only take it down if the Police tell them it's stolen which means me going to the Police. I get his point as I could walk in and say that anything in the shop was mine however I was a bit pissed off that he didn't want any of my details or to discuss the 'friend' they got it from.

I've messaged my 'mate' to give him the chance to explain himself and to settle his debt but he's not replying. I only have contact with him via Facebook which is a pain. I'm giving him until the morning and then I guess I have no option but to go to the Police.
Feel a bit sick.

Have I done the right thing?

Basher

Sounds like a difficult one!

The shop are in a difficult position and were correct not to give you the sellers details without proof the guitar was yours. Also, they might have bought it from someone else, i.e. your "mate" sold it to someone who sold it to someone etc.

It's further complicated by the fact that he made a partial payment and might argue that's what he understood you had agreed as the full price. The police might take the line that you shouldn't have let him have the goods without full payment. Sounds like a bit of a mess. I feel your pain as your kindness has been rewarded by such rotten behaviour.

DiscoStu

Re: payment and ownership - I sold it for £200 and he paid me £100 via Paypal on July 13th and said he'd give me the rest the following week but probably in two payments of £50. I haven't seen those second payments. I have the convo on Facebook Messenger so taken screenshots of it.
He's now moved away and is running a second profile on Facebook. I've just messaged him on that one too.

SimpleSimon

Nasty situation. How much was it on sale for out of interest? £100 is not a massive amount to be out of pocket but understand where your coming from. I doubt you have any real recourse as posession and all that..... In terms of wanting the guitar back in your posession presumably selling it to your mate in e first place your not particularly attached to it? Might be one to put down to experience and walk away from.

octatonic

For £100 I'd let it go.

DiscoStu

We agreed £200, of which he's only paid me £100. The shop are selling it for .. £200.

DiscoStu

octatonic said:

For £100 I'd let it go.

Only reason I was selling it was cos I need the money, so £100 isn't small change right now.

OilCityPickups

The onus will sadly on you to prove every step of your original transaction with your friend. If you can, and you don't consider maintaining friendship, then you can try the police, but I wouldn't hold my breath for any action from them. 

Alegree

Possession of a stolen item is retained by the first owner. 

If they sold it on, they're criminally liable for handling stolen goods now that they've been alerted. 
You'd also be able to legally claim it back from an innocent third party who had bought it. Then they'd have to claim their money back from the shop. 

Either way, the shop is stupid for not taking it down immediately because they can very easily find themselves in hot water legally.

dbphoto

I'm fairly confident the police won't be interested as surely it can't be considered as stolen, it just has an outstanding payment owed?

redrighthand

It could be argued that when you agreed to sell the guitar to him, in return for £200 via 3 instalments, then at that point he became owner of the guitar, irrespective of the time of payment.   You were then simply a creditor to whom he then owed (and still owes) a debt. He would then have been free to do what he wanted with the guitar.

Of course all this depends on whether you specifically agreed anything different with him.

IMO your best bet is to contact him and insist he pays you, otherwise you'll pursue him formally via small claims. May be enough to make him pay up. 

I don't think the cops or shop will be interested.

OilCityPickups

Alegree said:

Possession of a stolen item is retained by the first owner. 

If they sold it on, they're criminally liable for handling stolen goods now that they've been alerted. 
You'd also be able to legally claim it back from an innocent third party who had bought it. Then they'd have to claim their money back from the shop. 

Either way, the shop is stupid for not taking it down immediately because they can very easily find themselves in hot water legally.

I've not found these pawn shop 'converters' style store to be particularly fussy about the law, or any of their staff particularly clued up about either the law, or any of the stuff they sell. I pointed out to a similar shop locally that two 'Fenders' in their window were clearly fake ... they told me to go away and stop making trouble! I told local trading standards ... and they did nothing. The guitars were still there three months later. 

John_A

There was a cash converters literally over the road from my local guitar shop, years ago, someone ran in the shop and rann off with a cabinet containing a bunch of pedals.  The cabinet containing the pedals was on display in cash converters the next day.  The guitar shop owner who had the whole raid on cctv explained what had happened to the manager, who did nothing and told him to go to the police

BigMonka

redrighthand said:

It could be argued that when you agreed to sell the guitar to him, in return for £200 via 3 instalments, then at that point he became owner of the guitar, irrespective of the time of payment.   You were then simply a creditor to whom he then owed (and still owes) a debt. He would then have been free to do what he wanted with the guitar.

True, but there are loads of stories of bailiffs coming and collecting cars with outstanding finance, even from new owners they've been sold too, so hopefully Stu will be able to sort something out.

dbphoto

Bailiffs can only be instructed by the courts, not by the police.

And there is a big difference between stealing something and failure to make a balance payment on something you have bought.

Alegree

As soon as the credit arrangement is breached (by a stipulated time frame or a reasonable length of time. barring any waiving of ordinary rights), it's a breach of contractual condition. Meaning the contract collapses, and ownership returns to Stu. Provided he can show he took steps to try to recover the guitar after this, he'll not struggle to show ownership of the guitar is indeed vested in him.

Then he can go after either the 'mate', the shop, or the third party it's been sold onto, depending on whom has it in their possession.

DiscoStu

He's replied via his new FB account. Apologised and said he needed the money, and will square me up on Saturday.
Not much else I can do.

OilCityPickups

BigMonka said:

redrighthand said:

It could be argued that when you agreed to sell the guitar to him, in return for £200 via 3 instalments, then at that point he became owner of the guitar, irrespective of the time of payment.   You were then simply a creditor to whom he then owed (and still owes) a debt. He would then have been free to do what he wanted with the guitar.

True, but there are loads of stories of bailiffs coming and collecting cars with outstanding finance, even from new owners they've been sold too, so hopefully Stu will be able to sort something out.

This is because cars are relatively easy to repossess, being as they are largely parked in public areas where bailiffs can gain easy access. I wish Stu all the luck, but getting 'justice' is more complex than just being in the right. 
Having had my car stolen earlier this summer made me realise how little the authorities care about the victims of theft.
I did my duty and reported the theft to the police and my insurance company ... then was besieged with demands for money. The local council found the car within 24 hours and removed it for parking violation. They didn't report the find to the police, despite the fact the car had very obviously stolen, with doors unlocked and clear signs of hot-wiring. They just held onto it for three weeks and billed me £2500 for storage! Oh, and gave me a parking ticket and a fine for going down a one way street ... even though photographic evidence was clearly timed 6 hours after I reported it stolen. It took three weeks of calls and arguments to get the fines and fees cancelled ... and no apology.

Frizer

DiscoStu said:

He's replied via his new FB account. Apologised and said he needed the money, and will square me up on Saturday.
Not much else I can do.

Sounds promising. No theft as due to your arrangement he hasn't taken it dishonestly. Good luck!

SimpleSimon

Alegree said:

Possession of a stolen item is retained by the first owner. 

If they sold it on, they're criminally liable for handling stolen goods now that they've been alerted. 
You'd also be able to legally claim it back from an innocent third party who had bought it. Then they'd have to claim their money back from the shop. 

Either way, the shop is stupid for not taking it down immediately because they can very easily find themselves in hot water legally.

Technically its not stolen, at worst Stu has been paid £100 for it and to the police this will no doubt carry some weight. The shop likely hasnt done anything wrong and have bought in good faith and will have details of the transaction. Given the Police dont solve crime i doubt they will pursue anything at all.

Voxman

its not 'stolen', just money owed on it which you probably can't prove. You 'gave' the guitar to the guy and received partial payment, so at best methinks its a civil not criminal matter anyway. Consequently you've no recourse against the shop, only the guy you sold it too.  Bummer though - I feel your pain!  

Reminds of the joke though where a callgirl gets paid $100 for her services and afterwards goes to the hotel bar for a celebratory drink, when the barman looks at the $100 note, holds it up to the light and shakes his head.... 'Sorry love, its a fake' he says.  In horror the callgirl says "Quick, call the police...I've been raped!"