Stolen guitar in Cash Generator - this one's personal

SimpleSimon

Alegree said:

As soon as the credit arrangement is breached (by a stipulated time frame or a reasonable length of time. barring any waiving of ordinary rights), it's a breach of contractual condition. Meaning the contract collapses, and ownership returns to Stu. Provided he can show he took steps to try to recover the guitar after this, he'll not struggle to show ownership of the guitar is indeed vested in him.

Then he can go after either the 'mate', the shop, or the third party it's been sold onto, depending on whom has it in their possession.

What contract? Dont suppose any agreement was ever formalised. We are talking about two mates selling gear between themselves not a pucker credit agreement.

Alegree

SimpleSimon said:

Alegree said:

As soon as the credit arrangement is breached (by a stipulated time frame or a reasonable length of time. barring any waiving of ordinary rights), it's a breach of contractual condition. Meaning the contract collapses, and ownership returns to Stu. Provided he can show he took steps to try to recover the guitar after this, he'll not struggle to show ownership of the guitar is indeed vested in him.

Then he can go after either the 'mate', the shop, or the third party it's been sold onto, depending on whom has it in their possession.

What contract? Dont suppose any agreement was ever formalised. We are talking about two mates selling gear between themselves not a pucker credit agreement.




Contracts in legal terms aren't your typical 'sign on the dotted line' types. It's perfectly possible to have an entirely verbal contract.

skunkwerx

Funny how neither the store nor the cops would be interested, until you decided to repo it yourself. 

Which in anger is what I'd have done as I chucked £100 back at em as I fucked off out the door and told them to claim the rest of their ill gotten losses from the tosser that I once called a mate. 

I dunno man, call the cops, get a crime reference number, go back to Ass generator and see what they do. 

I'd be super furious. 

SimpleSimon

Alegree said:

SimpleSimon said:

Alegree said:

As soon as the credit arrangement is breached (by a stipulated time frame or a reasonable length of time. barring any waiving of ordinary rights), it's a breach of contractual condition. Meaning the contract collapses, and ownership returns to Stu. Provided he can show he took steps to try to recover the guitar after this, he'll not struggle to show ownership of the guitar is indeed vested in him.

Then he can go after either the 'mate', the shop, or the third party it's been sold onto, depending on whom has it in their possession.

What contract? Dont suppose any agreement was ever formalised. We are talking about two mates selling gear between themselves not a pucker credit agreement.




Contracts in legal terms aren't your typical 'sign on the dotted line' types. It's perfectly possible to have an entirely verbal contract.

Im aware that a contract can be formed verbally however Alegree is talking about credit arrangements etc FFS its two guys trading a guitar!

Winny_Pooh

How would you prove it's yours? If no theft was reported initially you will find it difficult to report it now. £100 for a lesson learned, never let gear be willing to leave unless you are willing to possibly write off the cost later. 

amarok1971

no mate does that, kick his teeth in 

Sassafras

I hope you get your £100 back off your 'mate' but based on his previous casual attitude to his debt to you, I wouldn't hold my breath.

andyp

At least it sounds like you will be getting the outstanding £100. Then just write your mate off as a friend and move on. People shaft each other all the time with seemingly scant regard for the other person or thinking what it would be like if the roles were reversed.

I'm sure a phone call along the lines of "I'm skint, I am going to have to sell your guitar but when I get the cash I'll pay you the balance" was probably the original intention but now he looks to have ripped you off by abusing your good nature. That's not the behaviour of a mate.

midlifecrisis

lesson is really to think about who your mates really are.

DefaultM

I'd just get in touch with him and say something like "you can give me that £100 you owe me now you've sold the guitar in cash generator can't you".

olafgarten

How much is it on sale for?

Ravenous

olafgarten said:

How much is it on sale for?

£200 (from Stu's post on  the previous page)

gubble

Interesting thread this one with some differing opinions. @discoStu would you mind if I used this thread in my next credit control meeting to get my team to discuss their thoughts on it?

Whilst I'm in complete agreement the mate this was sold to has been a complete idiot and not been a proper friend I've a few thoughts on this:

The 'contract' either verbal or agreed in writing by way of social media was to pay £200 for a guitar with a £100 deposit and paying the remaining balance at a later date.

I'm guessing there was no mention of Retention of Title during this? Meaning that the seller is still the lawful owner of the property until it has been paid for in full. Without this the seller would no longer own the item once it had been delivered. The buyer could therefore do whatever he wants with it including selling it on. The shop is currently the legal owner of the guitar and in my opinion are under no obligation to remove it from sale with the information provided on this forum.

The buyer owes the seller a debt. Which in theory could be repaid by repossessing the item however as the item no longer belongs to either of them this is impossible.

As already stated this would be a civil matter rather than a criminal matter. For £100 it really isn't worth taking them to court (I appreciate £100 is a significant amount of money to loose but in proceedings terms it's literally peanuts and your costs could outweigh this by a large magnitude).

Credit - no credit terms will have been agreed or implied in the agreement. For lots of boring reasons this is not a credit situation.

Alegree

gubble said:

Interesting thread this one with some differing opinions. @discoStu would you mind if I used this thread in my next credit control meeting to get my team to discuss their thoughts on it?

Whilst I'm in complete agreement the mate this was sold to has been a complete idiot and not been a proper friend I've a few thoughts on this:

The 'contract' either verbal or agreed in writing by way of social media was to pay £200 for a guitar with a £100 deposit and paying the remaining balance at a later date.

I'm guessing there was no mention of Retention of Title during this? Meaning that the seller is still the lawful owner of the property until it has been paid for in full. Without this the seller would no longer own the item once it had been delivered. The buyer could therefore do whatever he wants with it including selling it on. The shop is currently the legal owner of the guitar and in my opinion are under no obligation to remove it from sale with the information provided on this forum.

The buyer owes the seller a debt. Which in theory could be repaid by repossessing the item however as the item no longer belongs to either of them this is impossible.

As already stated this would be a civil matter rather than a criminal matter. For £100 it really isn't worth taking them to court (I appreciate £100 is a significant amount of money to loose but in proceedings terms it's literally peanuts and your costs could outweigh this by a large magnitude).

Credit - no credit terms will have been agreed or implied in the agreement. For lots of boring reasons this is not a credit situation.

Correct. Up until the last paragraph which could be an area of contention, but I think it's more likely than not to be the case you've stated with the implied terms of credit.

But as I've previously discussed, in either case, Stu has ownership of the guitar so it's more or less irrelevant to the outcome. 

However, now the 'mate' has contacted him with the offer to pay the remainder, and Stu has accepted, all the rights to repossess the guitar are waived. Provided he actually does pay up.

Rox

Judge Rinder is your only recourse.

Sassafras

Might I suggest you choose your 'mates' more carefully in future?
  

gubble

Alegree said:

gubble said:

Credit - no credit terms will have been agreed or implied in the agreement. For lots of boring reasons this is not a credit situation.

Correct. Up until the last paragraph which could be an area of contention, but I think it's more likely than not to be the case you've stated with the implied terms of credit.

As this transaction would be considered to be sold to a consumer rather than sold to a business the seller would need to be authorised to offer credit by the FCA - which I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark that our friend on the forum has not got and even if he did are the terms specified for payment within the regulations stipulated by the FCA? (hope I didn't sound arsey there)

If I took action on this I'd personally use the words "Debt owed to the value of £100.00 for a guitar supplied"

You should get him on Judge Rinder @DiscoStu

DiscoStu

It's a shit situation!

It's not a business transaction so no signatures on agreements or credit forms. It's me helping a mate out, then giving him first dibs on the guitar before I take it back and sell it elsewhere, then him relatively quickly selling it on before he's actually paid me for it.
I can't repossess it as he doesn't have it any more, if he doesn't pay up then the cost of small claims court is prohibitive given the figure involved, and I'm left out of pocket.

It isn't as easy as saying I handed over the guitar and therefore gave him ownership as he was already borrowing it cos I'm a good guy and wanted to help him out. 

There is nothing I can really do until Saturday to see if he pays up.

andyp

That was what I was getting at, you did him a favour and he took advantage of it / you.

Stick with it, he might pay on Saturday then it's dealt with (even though there will surely be some ill feeling). If he doesn't, I assume that will be by way of not showing up or calling off last minute then I don't know what I would do next. Other than just hassle the fuck out of him daily... which will probably do nothing more than piss you off even more.

Alegree

gubble said:

Alegree said:

gubble said:

Credit - no credit terms will have been agreed or implied in the agreement. For lots of boring reasons this is not a credit situation.

Correct. Up until the last paragraph which could be an area of contention, but I think it's more likely than not to be the case you've stated with the implied terms of credit.

As this transaction would be considered to be sold to a consumer rather than sold to a business the seller would need to be authorised to offer credit by the FCA - which I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark that our friend on the forum has not got and even if he did are the terms specified for payment within the regulations stipulated by the FCA? (hope I didn't sound arsey there)

If I took action on this I'd personally use the words "Debt owed to the value of £100.00 for a guitar supplied"

You should get him on Judge Rinder @DiscoStu

Sorry I'm using debt and credit interchangably.