No Gibson at NAMM

dindude

1.7b turnover is only about 13 True Historics!

RandallFlagg

Gibson aren't going to NAMM as the whole team is flat out, working round the clock, to design another ever so slightly wrong set of features, specs and logos for their next line-up of guitars.

olafgarten

I think the Trade Show format is the wrong idea for Musical Instruments, at least for larger brands.

It should be more like a Stage Show with them demoing their gear to an audience. 

impmann

olafgarten said:

I think the Trade Show format is the wrong idea for Musical Instruments, at least for larger brands.

It should be more like a Stage Show with them demoing their gear to an audience. 

Erm... its a trade show to sell in bulk to distributors and dealers, its not really about the end consumer. Yes they do attend, but really that is the reason manufacturers attend NAMM and Frankfurt.

There are (or rather were) other shows that are designed for the purpose you describe - for example Music Live. These aren't actually as "important" to the manufacturers as NAMM and Frankfurt though due to the sales potential.

EDIT: Showing my age and how things have changed... Music Live doesn't exist any more at the NEC... substitute The Guitar Show for Music Live and you get my point.

guitars4you

impmann said:

olafgarten said:

I think the Trade Show format is the wrong idea for Musical Instruments, at least for larger brands.

It should be more like a Stage Show with them demoing their gear to an audience. 

Erm... its a trade show to sell in bulk to distributors and dealers, its not really about the end consumer. Yes they do attend, but really that is the reason manufacturers attend NAMM and Frankfurt.

There are (or rather were) other shows that are designed for the purpose you describe - for example Music Live. These aren't actually as "important" to the manufacturers as NAMM and Frankfurt though due to the sales potential.

EDIT: Showing my age and how things have changed... Music Live doesn't exist any more at the NEC... substitute The Guitar Show for Music Live and you get my point.

There has been talk in the trade for years about how to get the end user involved with clinics, shows, etc - big, small, instore etc etc etc - Where to hold the event, what format, when, size etc etc and no successful outcome to date

I recall a Roland product launch at NAMM around 15 years ago and the product demo was awesome - when he finished you immediately thought I'd have one - Yet did this message get through to a) the salesman on the shop floor (I worked for Academy of Sound at the time) and b) the customer - The answer was no - Granted the demonstrator had spent hours learning the product and perfecting his pitch, but what we end up with is a diluted version - That was a technology based product - But I'm not sure a great guitar playing demonstrating a Custom Shop hi end guitar on stage to an audience is the answer as chances are they will all sound good - If he plays 20 different guitars from 20 different makers most/all would sound good in such an environment - You still need to check it out for yourself

Interesting that at The Guitar Show in Birmingham courtesy of @Jason that I don't recall Gibson ever having a stand - they have had representation on PMT's stand, but can't recall Gibson themselves promoting themselves  at such event - If they have done one or two shows then they haven't been there for the last few years

Jason

In almost 20 years, Gibson have only once actually had a stand with me. But they have stands at Silverstone for the F1. They can really spend money where they don’t need to

EricTheWeary

Gibson ( or the UK distributors anyway) stopped advertising in UK guitar magazines many years ago. I remember people saying that new Gibsons only got positive reviews in places like Guitarist in order to protect advertising revenue whereas they hadn't paid for an ad in 20 years. 

guitars4you

Jason said:

In almost 20 years, Gibson have only once actually had a stand with me. But they have stands at Silverstone for the F1. They can really spend money where they don’t need to

I vaguely recall a Brum show with Gibson and a guest appearance by Jo Bonamassa when he was less well known - that might be the one and only - And a 'tour bus' ?????????????????

gavin_axecaster

Be interesting to see if Gibson go to Musikmesse this year.
I don't think Fender has been for a few years - certainly the last time I attended Fender were a no-show.
(Cant really tell anything from the Musikmesse site as it's a convoluted buggy POS but I can't find Gibson listed as an exhibitor at last year's show either)

gibsongretschfan

So many business experts of this forum...

either way my 2014 R8 is all sorts of awesome but I’ll be pretty pissed if Philips end up going bust because I’ve had a few brilliant TV’s and sound systems from them

Jason

guitars4you said:

Jason said:

In almost 20 years, Gibson have only once actually had a stand with me. But they have stands at Silverstone for the F1. They can really spend money where they don’t need to

I vaguely recall a Brum show with Gibson and a guest appearance by Jo Bonamassa when he was less well known - that might be the one and only - And a 'tour bus' ?????????????????

They were different years Mark ( @guitars4you ) . I did the Joe Bonamassa thing, he did an acoustic performance for me during the day, then a gig on the night.

The bus did make an appearance one year, I had forgotten about that, that and one proper stand.

Bridgehouse

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

Jason

gavin_axecaster said:

Be interesting to see if Gibson go to Musikmesse this year.
I don't think Fender has been for a few years - certainly the last time I attended Fender were a no-show.
(Cant really tell anything from the Musikmesse site as it's a convoluted buggy POS but I can't find Gibson listed as an exhibitor at last year's show either)

Neither for the last few years, but they weren't alone, I know many have pulled out. Mainly its down to ever increasing costs from the Organisers/Venues

gibsongretschfan

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

I’ve ran businesses but I still no sweet fuck all about venture capital markets 

Bridgehouse

gibsongretschfan said:

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

I’ve ran businesses but I still no sweet fuck all about venture capital markets 

I'd say quite a lot of Gibson's current problems are reasonably basic good old fashioned business decisions..

Like their relationship with Guitar Centre
Like their product range choices
Like their understanding of their core market
Like the 2015 situation

And I could go on. It's not an investment choice issue at all, but good old fashioned "make what you can sell, don't sell what you can make" thing.

scrumhalf

gibsongretschfan said:

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

I’ve ran businesses but I still no sweet fuck all about venture capital markets 

It's an old quote - venture capitalists are bastards, but they're bastards with money.

gibsongretschfan

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

I’ve ran businesses but I still no sweet fuck all about venture capital markets 

I'd say quite a lot of Gibson's current problems are reasonably basic good old fashioned business decisions..

Like their relationship with Guitar Centre
Like their product range choices
Like their understanding of their core market
Like the 2015 situation

And I could go on. It's not an investment choice issue at all, but good old fashioned "make what you can sell, don't sell what you can make" thing.

Yeah but by the sounds of it the problem isn’t actually with Gibson the guitar maker it’s with Gibson the guys that went whackadoodle and Vogt a bunch of AV tech companies using daddy’s credit card now can’t pay it back

JMP220478

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

Bridgehouse said:

gibsongretschfan said:

So many business experts of this forum...

Indeed. Some of us even run a business I'm led to believe.

I’ve ran businesses but I still no sweet fuck all about venture capital markets 

I'd say quite a lot of Gibson's current problems are reasonably basic good old fashioned business decisions..

Like their relationship with Guitar Centre
Like their product range choices
Like their understanding of their core market
Like the 2015 situation

And I could go on. It's not an investment choice issue at all, but good old fashioned "make what you can sell, don't sell what you can make" thing.

    all above - Gibson seem to have long forgotten their customers - if you are not close to your market then you dont deserve to  survive.. 

   Also re prototype / pipeline ranges and their superstar users / high profile specialist dealers - surely as a focus group their feedback would avoid some of the more recent horror stories - ie robot tuners / less logo / brass nuts 

Bridgehouse

gibsongretschfan said:

Yeah but by the sounds of it the problem isn’t actually with Gibson the guitar maker it’s with Gibson the guys that went whackadoodle and Vogt a bunch of AV tech companies using daddy’s credit card now can’t pay it back

That's true, they borrowed to acquire. However, their logic for acquiring was sound. They saw a revenue decline from guitar sales and decided to diversify to protect their position.

Even the brands they chose to acquire were sound choices. 

But none have them have received significant investment since to bring a return on the investment. When they spotted a revenue decline, they should have tackled that problem head on and try to understand how they could get the very most out of the guitar market, and protect themselves with investments to generate some more cash to keep everything sweet whilst they made changes to improve their core business revenue.

The real problem is any interested buyer is going to want the debt to go. They will also want to understand where the future revenue is coming from. 

Let's say a group of investors think they can turn the guitar business round. Not only do they have to buy it and treat the debt, they then have to invest in the actual production process to (hopefully) make a product range that the market responds to in such a positive way that the investors see a return on their investment pretty quickly.

I would say the biggest problem is that the brand has a value. Their manufacturing process and product as is at the moment would put a lot off. That means it's brand bought and asset strip. 

My guess? Gretch. Brand preserved, with no US production, but instead a 100% Far East Gibson production model. 

TTony

We've done this so many times before ...

Gibson are over-extended, and have no visible means of paying off their debts.

The *best* option for a future for the brand is that someone with enough real money buys the brand and associated IP, stops all the devaluation of the brand (stop the model year strategy and sort out QC), and introduces a sustainable business strategy that recognises the realities of the guitar buying world.

20years ago, that might have been Mr P R Smith, but (a) he didn't have the money then and (b) he doesn't need the brand now.

So, today, the most likely buyer - as Mr @darthed1981 says - is Chinese.

A 3-tier product line strategy (PRS again), delivers

• high quality, traditional design instruments, built in the US, at premium prices.  Profit is king, so they sell at £2k/$3k upwards.  No discounting.  Production scales to meet demand.  Quality is absolutely sacrosanct and, through time, the name comes to mean something again.
• high quality, traditional design instruments, but MIC at production line prices.  Profit is still king, but in the £500-£1k range, they're making smaller margins on higher volumes.  Beat PRS SE at its own game.  
• that leaves a big gap in the £1k - £2k range.  In that space we might have some adventurous designs, modern tech, but still at quality, together with a basics version of the main US range.

The new owner has to be able to develop new markets.  The US and European markets are saturated.  Too many guitars, too few buyers.  Any business that wants a sustainable future has to be able to create (and meet) demand in the new markets.  That means BRICS markets.  That means manufacturing to a price point, and having the ability to respond to local market expectations.  Hence a Chinese owner.