Handwound v machine wound pickups? (specifically Fender Custom Shop)

Jonathanthomas83

Are the differences THAT noticeable? If I'm spending the money, should I go that extra mile?

Let's say a guitar is available at £3k with machine wound and it would cost an extra £500ish (plus a 9 month wait) to custom spec the same one with handwound pickups, is it worth it?

meltedbuzzbox

no. 

Mojo and other third parties will provide you with better pickups for a lot less. 

Jonathanthomas83

I'd be reluctant to go all the way through the process of buying a Custom Shop (even if it's off the shelf) to then change out the pickups...the point of this, for me is to find something that works pretty much first time and live with it. That may be naive of me, but it's how I'm feeling at the moment.

impmann

In my experience, ALL Fender pickups can be improved upon if you want something that sounds vintage correct - and you'll pay *less* for a better product if you buy from one of the UK winders.

Strat54

So you are talking about comparing stock CS Fender pickups v Josephina 'hand' wounds? Certainly not worth paying the extra and waiting in that case. I doubt anyone could hear the difference between the two if they were the same pickup model (magnet type etc ) Lets face it £500 buys you pretty much any set of pickups new.

TA22GT

The big problem is that you don't know if you will like the handwounds in your guitar.

The only way to tell is to compare pickups in YOUR guitar when it arrives.  Handwound does not guarantee better at all and that's the problem in deciding on "what pickup" .... you won't know until you hear it.
Best of luck with your decision.

interstellar

after going through this kind of angst i have concluded that there are loads of good options out there, both UK made and ROTW, there are of course differences between various makers pickups (same variety), most sound great and it boils down to

do you like the sound they make
do you have to care that much (as they all make a good sound anyway)
are you better off putting your time and energy into playing better rather than the fine fine details of tonal nirvana

meltedbuzzbox

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I'd be reluctant to go all the way through the process of buying a Custom Shop (even if it's off the shelf) to then change out the pickups...the point of this, for me is to find something that works pretty much first time and live with it. That may be naive of me, but it's how I'm feeling at the moment.

Its an easy change. I'd get the neck profile right over everything else and make sure you like how everything plays on the guitar.
I've changed the pickups in both of my CS Fenders and it has improved them both unquestionably but I made sure the instrument was right before I bought it. 

Jonathanthomas83

meltedbuzzbox said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

I'd be reluctant to go all the way through the process of buying a Custom Shop (even if it's off the shelf) to then change out the pickups...the point of this, for me is to find something that works pretty much first time and live with it. That may be naive of me, but it's how I'm feeling at the moment.

Its an easy change. I'd get the neck profile right over everything else and make sure you like how everything plays on the guitar.
I've changed the pickups in both of my CS Fenders and it has improved them both unquestionably but I made sure the instrument was right before I bought it. 

That about sums up my thinking then. I think that it's mostly down to the feel of the guitar at this level, so it's good to know that I wouldn't be the first to make pickup changes to a Custom Shop if they're not quite right. Thanks mate

OilCityPickups

What hand winding (specifically scatter winding) does: 
Crossing the turns of wire at extreme/random angles ... as done in hand scatter winding ... reduces the distributed capacitance of a pickup. Higher capacitance filters out high frequencies. So scatter wound pickups have more high frequencies. This can actually be a good or a bad thing depending on what you want from a pickup. Scatter wound is not automatically better. 
For example some humbuckers can sound harsh and unpleasant if scatter wound ... and indeed some low wind single coils can sound 'ice pick' like.   

impmann

TheGuitarWeasel said:

What hand winding (specifically scatter winding) does: 
Crossing the turns of wire at extreme/random angles ... as done in hand scatter winding ... reduces the distributed capacitance of a pickup. Higher capacitance filters out high frequencies. So scatter wound pickups have more high frequencies. This can actually be a good or a bad thing depending on what you want from a pickup. Scatter wound is not automatically better. 
For example some humbuckers can sound harsh and unpleasant if scatter wound ... and indeed some low wind single coils can sound 'ice pick' like.   

Ash, care to elaborate about the humbuckers that sound harsh and unpleasant if scatter wound or the low wind s/c that sound ice pick like? I've not heard that before - especially if you have examples.

Funkfingers

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Let's say a guitar is available at £3k with machine wound and it would cost an extra £500ish (plus a 9 month wait) to custom spec the same one with handwound pickups, is it worth it?

The only valid test is an A/B comparison.

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Are the differences THAT noticeable?

I cannot think of any published theories claiming that, say, an evenly wound single coil sounds one way and that a coil that bulges in the middle sounds another way. Sometimes, a single coil ends up with more copper wire towards one fibreboard plate than the other. Again, nobody out there is claiming to be able to pick out one coil profile over another.

More likely, a particular pickup pleases its owner. On removing the plastic cover, the coil is discovered to have been wound a particular way. Pickup owner seeks more pickups wound in the same manner.

TA22GT said:
Handwound does not guarantee better .... you won't know until you hear ... the handwounds in YOUR guitar.

Exactly. There is no *science bit*.




PEDANTRY CORNER 
Unless some home hobby builder is using an old Mouli grater to rotate the bobbin, there is no such thing as a hand wound pickup. They are machine wound and hand guided.

OilCityPickups

Funkfingers said:

PEDANTRY CORNER 
Unless some home hobby builder is using an old Mouli grater to rotate the bobbin, there is no such thing as a hand wound pickup. They are machine wound and hand guided.

Exactly right.

impmann said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

What hand winding (specifically scatter winding) does: 
Crossing the turns of wire at extreme/random angles ... as done in hand scatter winding ... reduces the distributed capacitance of a pickup. Higher capacitance filters out high frequencies. So scatter wound pickups have more high frequencies. This can actually be a good or a bad thing depending on what you want from a pickup. Scatter wound is not automatically better. 
For example some humbuckers can sound harsh and unpleasant if scatter wound ... and indeed some low wind single coils can sound 'ice pick' like.   

Ash, care to elaborate about the humbuckers that sound harsh and unpleasant if scatter wound or the low wind s/c that sound ice pick like? I've not heard that before - especially if you have examples.

Stand by for a piece specifically written about this very subject. It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community ... 

Funkfingers

TheGuitarWeasel said:
It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community. 

It certainly should when some boutique builders would have customers believe that ALL Gibson P.A.F. humbuckers follow an identical scatter pattern and, hence, that their particular clone is the closest to the original.

Seymour Duncan Inc. makes a big deal out of owning one of the old Gibson factory Leesona winding machines. In and of itself, ownership signifies nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

dangriffiths

Minimal difference in my experience and I have foolishly not gone for guitars in the past when I thought it was essential  

Jonathanthomas83

dangriffiths said:

Minimal difference in my experience and I have foolishly not gone for guitars in the past when I thought it was essential  

This is perfect for my predicament at the moment. So appreciate the advice, thanks, Dan!

impmann

Funkfingers said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:
It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community. 

It certainly should when some boutique builders would have customers believe that ALL Gibson P.A.F. humbuckers follow an identical scatter pattern and, hence, that their particular clone is the closest to the original.

Who says that?

Everything I've read contradicts that - to the point that some coils have very different amounts of wire on them compared to others (and there are pictures of this out there).

Seymour Duncan Inc. makes a big deal out of owning one of the old Gibson factory Leesona winding machines. In and of itself, ownership signifies nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

Maybe not. But then, does having exactly the same type of plastic for the bobbin make any difference? Does a pine not maple fillet make any difference?
However, from everything I've read its the *tension* of the wire that can make a big difference. Depending on the machine and the degree of handwork needed to feed the wire into the bobbin, this may have a minor effect if you use a similar or identical machine to that used to create a PAF. But a lot of that could be cobblers/theoretical nonsense.

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Stand by for a piece specifically written about this very subject. It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community ... 

I'm standing by... I'm keen to read more, especially if its evidence based. :-) Certainly my own experience of hand guided (to appease the pedants) vs machine wound, contradicts this - all the very worst pickups I can think of are machine wound. And its usually a harshness or ice-pickiness that I associate with such units.

OilCityPickups

impmann said:

Funkfingers said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:
It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community. 

It certainly should when some boutique builders would have customers believe that ALL Gibson P.A.F. humbuckers follow an identical scatter pattern and, hence, that their particular clone is the closest to the original.

Who says that?

Everything I've read contradicts that - to the point that some coils have very different amounts of wire on them compared to others (and there are pictures of this out there).

Seymour Duncan Inc. makes a big deal out of owning one of the old Gibson factory Leesona winding machines. In and of itself, ownership signifies nothing. Nada. Zilch. 

Maybe not. But then, does having exactly the same type of plastic for the bobbin make any difference? Does a pine not maple fillet make any difference?
However, from everything I've read its the *tension* of the wire that can make a big difference. Depending on the machine and the degree of handwork needed to feed the wire into the bobbin, this may have a minor effect if you use a similar or identical machine to that used to create a PAF. But a lot of that could be cobblers/theoretical nonsense.

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Stand by for a piece specifically written about this very subject. It causes huge controversy within the pickup making community ... 

I'm standing by... I'm keen to read more, especially if its evidence based. :-) Certainly my own experience of hand guided (to appease the pedants) vs machine wound, contradicts this - all the very worst pickups I can think of are machine wound. And its usually a harshness or ice-pickiness that I associate with such units.

There is significantly more to this than I have time to write in the middle of a working day ... I will put together an article with photographs shortly.

All 50s Gibson PAFs were machine wound by the way ... and the genuine article is not renown for being ice pick like. :-)

To nail my colours to the mast ... some of my pickups are hand wound (guided) and some are machine wound. Neither process is better, they just produce different results. I simply do not subscribe to the 'hand winding is always best' mantra, and prefer to fit the winding method to the intended tone of the pickup. 

guitars4you

I've said this many times before, regarding a potential custom ordered Custom Shop guitar, to your spec - It is like shutting your eyes, dreaming what you want it to be, then after waiting 6-8 months for it to arriving, hoping the finished article will match your dream

Between the various dealers in the UK there is often enough good stock around to find a nice guitar - In trying many different models, you'll find they are all the same, with variations - Some with more subtle differences than others - I've just had arrived 4 x 64 Strats - all identical spec - Are they all the same regarding feel and tone ? - Nearly but subtle differences - Same pick-ups etc, so the only variation is the wood - weight is only a couple of lbs either way - Slight different pitch when you tap them 

My point is that you can request the neck shape you want, the pick-ups, the frets etc etc - I guarantee you won't get a bad guitar, but will it be the one that matches your dream ? - And if it doesn't then nothing you can do about it

If you found a nice guitar in one store, and based your custom ordered guitar on that one guitar, but say a variation in colour etc, it won't be the same as what you have tried - It will be close but not the same - The more C/Shop models you try, the more you'll realise many are similar but they are all different - You just don't know which you are getting until it arrives

Most of the UK dealers will gladly assist on a custom order, but if it was me I'd buy what I can get my hands on now as I know what the finished article is - And if it is the one that ticks the boxes then it doesn't matter what the pick-ups are, spec wise, but you know your ears like 'em

DanR

I've order guitars from a few different brands to exactly what I wanted and I own none of them now.

My off the shelf CS Tele has been with me a few years and I'd never change it.

TA22GT

guitars4you said:

I've said this many times before, regarding a potential custom ordered Custom Shop guitar, to your spec - It is like shutting your eyes, dreaming what you want it to be, then after waiting 6-8 months for it to arriving, hoping the finished article will match your dream

Between the various dealers in the UK there is often enough good stock around to find a nice guitar - In trying many different models, you'll find they are all the same, with variations - Some with more subtle differences than others - I've just had arrived 4 x 64 Strats - all identical spec - Are they all the same regarding feel and tone ? - Nearly but subtle differences - Same pick-ups etc, so the only variation is the wood - weight is only a couple of lbs either way - Slight different pitch when you tap them 

My point is that you can request the neck shape you want, the pick-ups, the frets etc etc - I guarantee you won't get a bad guitar, but will it be the one that matches your dream ? - And if it doesn't then nothing you can do about it

If you found a nice guitar in one store, and based your custom ordered guitar on that one guitar, but say a variation in colour etc, it won't be the same as what you have tried - It will be close but not the same - The more C/Shop models you try, the more you'll realise many are similar but they are all different - You just don't know which you are getting until it arrives

Most of the UK dealers will gladly assist on a custom order, but if it was me I'd buy what I can get my hands on now as I know what the finished article is - And if it is the one that ticks the boxes then it doesn't matter what the pick-ups are, spec wise, but you know your ears like 'em

Simply..THIS.