Handwound v machine wound pickups? (specifically Fender Custom Shop)

Alegree

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

One thing to note about Fender - perhaps @guitars4you can confirm - I thought you actually had to go out of your way to get machine-wound pickups on a Custom Shop build. I don't know if they charge extra for them, but it's something you have to specify I believe, otherwise you get "hand-wound" (whatever that means) "by default" (in whatever model you choose).

option is available for either - extra for hand wound

ah, OK, thanks - that's not what someone else had told me, appreciate the confirmation from something much closer to the horse's mouth!

massive al a carte menu of options - some aren't even listed - many pick up options are exclusive to Custom Shop Guitars and not for sale as after market options

If you do a Masterbuilt can you spec out custom pickups entirely? Like tell them you want A5 scatterwounds with staggered poles and approximately 9k...? Or does it not quite work that specifically?

Literally any winder in the UK will do that for you with a discussion on how best to achieve what you're going for, if you want that sort of thing for the fraction of the price...

Whitecat

Alegree said:

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

One thing to note about Fender - perhaps @guitars4you can confirm - I thought you actually had to go out of your way to get machine-wound pickups on a Custom Shop build. I don't know if they charge extra for them, but it's something you have to specify I believe, otherwise you get "hand-wound" (whatever that means) "by default" (in whatever model you choose).

option is available for either - extra for hand wound

ah, OK, thanks - that's not what someone else had told me, appreciate the confirmation from something much closer to the horse's mouth!

massive al a carte menu of options - some aren't even listed - many pick up options are exclusive to Custom Shop Guitars and not for sale as after market options

If you do a Masterbuilt can you spec out custom pickups entirely? Like tell them you want A5 scatterwounds with staggered poles and approximately 9k...? Or does it not quite work that specifically?

Literally any winder in the UK will do that for you with a discussion on how best to achieve what you're going for, if you want that sort of thing for the fraction of the price...

I am aware of that, thanks.

I'm asking out of curiosity, it's not like I'm gonna order a Fender Masterbuilt and at that price level and just say "leave the pickup cavities empty, I'm gonna put some aftermarkets instantly in."

Point being, if you're going Masterbuilt, you might as well make the most of it. This is all hypothetical anyway, I'm not in the market, just wondering out loud.

guitars4you

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

guitars4you said:

Whitecat said:

One thing to note about Fender - perhaps @guitars4you can confirm - I thought you actually had to go out of your way to get machine-wound pickups on a Custom Shop build. I don't know if they charge extra for them, but it's something you have to specify I believe, otherwise you get "hand-wound" (whatever that means) "by default" (in whatever model you choose).

option is available for either - extra for hand wound

ah, OK, thanks - that's not what someone else had told me, appreciate the confirmation from something much closer to the horse's mouth!

massive al a carte menu of options - some aren't even listed - many pick up options are exclusive to Custom Shop Guitars and not for sale as after market options

If you do a Masterbuilt can you spec out custom pickups entirely? Like tell them you want A5 scatterwounds with staggered poles and approximately 9k...? Or does it not quite work that specifically?

there are certain options on a Masterbuilt that you can ask for that you can't on a Custom Shop  ie you want the guitar finished in say Celtic FC colours, or whatever your team is, then they will do it

I'm not sure on that p/up request as I've never been asked before - Likewise can I have it fitted with say Lollar p/ups then I don't know, so I would have to ask - there is leeway available on MB - ie you can state a weight say 7lbs and one piece body, for instance

crunchman

Sporky said:

lasermonkey said:

I used to completely hand-wind transformers at my previous job. 1000 turns likely isn't much compared to a pickup, but I remember it taking a considerable amount of time and keeping track of the number of turns was a nightmare!

I had to hand-wind some toroidal inductors for a DIY Class-T amp. Probably only 30-40 turns each but I wanted to kill something by the end of it.

How would you fancy doing it again?  Let us know where and when and we'll try to arrange for Piers Morgan and Katy Hopkins to be present.

axisus

impmann said:

axisus said:

Handwound - Marketing rubbish if you ask me. Fleecing suckers of more money.

Hmmm... disagree. I agree that the terminology upsets pedants. But unless you work in the Nuclear Fuels Industry, pedantry isn't necessarily an attractive attribute.

Just like those who reckon a stock Squier CV will sound better than a CS Strat, its all just opinion. But in my opinion, its not "fleecing suckers" - and replacing the pickups in my guitars with "marketing rubbish" has improved them dramatically. So much so that the original Fender pickup from my ancient 1970s Tele went in the BIN.

If we all liked the same things, it would be boring.

You bought some excellent pickups that have improved your guitar, and that is great! Aftermarket pickups can be vastly superior to stock, but I was specifically referring to the concept of paying over the odds for handwound. What my point really is (Didn't express it well!) is that to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. A guitarist may get either an improved guitar or a 'placebo' effect of perceiving it as better, but no other bugger on the planet will notice the difference when it's stuck on a record, played live etc. Having said that, I'm happy for anyone else to enjoy spending extra money on handwound pickups, and even better if for them if they consider it money well spent.

I'm just an old cynic and a grump.

clarkefan

axisus said:

impmann said:

axisus said:

Handwound - Marketing rubbish if you ask me. Fleecing suckers of more money.

Hmmm... disagree. I agree that the terminology upsets pedants. But unless you work in the Nuclear Fuels Industry, pedantry isn't necessarily an attractive attribute.

Just like those who reckon a stock Squier CV will sound better than a CS Strat, its all just opinion. But in my opinion, its not "fleecing suckers" - and replacing the pickups in my guitars with "marketing rubbish" has improved them dramatically. So much so that the original Fender pickup from my ancient 1970s Tele went in the BIN.

If we all liked the same things, it would be boring.

You bought some excellent pickups that have improved your guitar, and that is great! Aftermarket pickups can be vastly superior to stock, but I was specifically referring to the concept of paying over the odds for handwound. What my point really is (Didn't express it well!) is that to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. A guitarist may get either an improved guitar or a 'placebo' effect of perceiving it as better, but no other bugger on the planet will notice the difference when it's stuck on a record, played live etc. Having said that, I'm happy for anyone else to enjoy spending extra money on handwound pickups, and even better if for them if they consider it money well spent.

I'm just an old cynic and a grump.

This. What pickups did Hendrix use?  Whatever was in the Strat he had.

OilCityPickups

clarkefan said:

axisus said:

impmann said:

axisus said:

Handwound - Marketing rubbish if you ask me. Fleecing suckers of more money.

Hmmm... disagree. I agree that the terminology upsets pedants. But unless you work in the Nuclear Fuels Industry, pedantry isn't necessarily an attractive attribute.

Just like those who reckon a stock Squier CV will sound better than a CS Strat, its all just opinion. But in my opinion, its not "fleecing suckers" - and replacing the pickups in my guitars with "marketing rubbish" has improved them dramatically. So much so that the original Fender pickup from my ancient 1970s Tele went in the BIN.

If we all liked the same things, it would be boring.

You bought some excellent pickups that have improved your guitar, and that is great! Aftermarket pickups can be vastly superior to stock, but I was specifically referring to the concept of paying over the odds for handwound. What my point really is (Didn't express it well!) is that to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. A guitarist may get either an improved guitar or a 'placebo' effect of perceiving it as better, but no other bugger on the planet will notice the difference when it's stuck on a record, played live etc. Having said that, I'm happy for anyone else to enjoy spending extra money on handwound pickups, and even better if for them if they consider it money well spent.

I'm just an old cynic and a grump.

This. What pickups did Hendrix use?  Whatever was in the Strat he had.

Mid to late sixties on his 'large headstock' post CBS Strats ...  machine wound with PVA Plain enamel wire. This gave more pronounced mids than the early Fender pickup combo of 'heavy Formvar and handwound'... more 'rocky' for the want of a better term.  

Sporky

axisus said:

 to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. 

Thing is, there's good science and engineering behind both. Pretty sure I've explained the battery one before - from the point of view of someone with an electronic engineering degree and who's designed, built, and sold quite a lot of pedals. 

Carbon comp batteries (which I believe are the ones Mr Johnson likes) have a very high internal resistance. That means that as the current draw increases, their output voltage drops. In many simple circuits (eg most analogue pedals), dropping the supply voltage results in very significant changes in the sound. We're not talking "golden ears" stuff. TS style circuits get much fuzzier and 'gated', for example. 

Mr Guitar weasel has explained how the different winding patterns affect the capacitance of the pickup, and how that affects the sound. A more advanced winding machine can probably (this is an educated guess on my part) do something similar to scatter winding, but (again, my guess) most machine wound pickups probably have very even windings. 

You don't have to think its worth it, of course, but in both cases the science is simple and sound. 

OilCityPickups

Sporky said:

axisus said:

 to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. 

Mr Guitar weasel has explained how the different winding patterns affect the capacitance of the pickup, and how that affects the sound. A more advanced winding machine can probably (this is an educated guess on my part) do something similar to scatter winding, but (again, my guess) most machine wound pickups probably have very even windings. 

You don't have to think its worth it, of course, but in both cases the science is simple and sound. 

From the dewy eyed newbe who once had a major bust up with you over CNC (sorry dude) ... I am very much a convert. My own CNC winding equipment can duplicate hand scatter winding ... over and over, bringing consistency to scatter winding (if I decide a pickup needs it). 

Sporky

I think we're over it, chief.  

OilCityPickups

Sporky said:

I think we're over it, chief.  

You need to come see 'Tweedle Dee and Tweedle dum' my CNC machines in operation some time ... 
If a pickup has 300 layers of wire to the full wind, I can program each layer to have a specific wire angle, turns per layer, and start and stop point ... repeatable and consistent ... or they will wind fully manual scatter wound ...

Sporky

And the laser! Everyone likes lasers. 

PhilKing

guitars4you said:

there are certain options on a Masterbuilt that you can ask for that you can't on a Custom Shop  ie you want the guitar finished in say Celtic FC colours, or whatever your team is, then they will do it

I'm not sure on that p/up request as I've never been asked before - Likewise can I have it fitted with say Lollar p/ups then I don't know, so I would have to ask - there is leeway available on MB - ie you can state a weight say 7lbs and one piece body, for instance

Didn't they do some with Bare Knuckles pickups about 3 years ago?

OilCityPickups

Sporky said:

And the laser! Everyone likes lasers. 

Best boy's toy in the world 60w CO2 gas laser .... Death Star!
Perfect single coil flatwork ... and buttons and everything to press! Perfect!

crunchman

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Sporky said:

And the laser! Everyone likes lasers. 

Best boy's toy in the world 60w CO2 gas laser .... Death Star!

I got to use a really big one at university a long time ago.  Think it was 5kW if I remember correctly.  Used in very short bursts to melt metal very quickly when making metal matrix composites.

OilCityPickups

crunchman said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Sporky said:

And the laser! Everyone likes lasers. 

Best boy's toy in the world 60w CO2 gas laser .... Death Star!

I got to use a really big one at university a long time ago.  Think it was 5kW if I remember correctly.  Used in very short bursts to melt metal very quickly when making metal matrix composites.

Ours is perfect for single coil flatwork and killing wasps messily.

roberty

TheGuitarWeasel said:

clarkefan said:This. What pickups did Hendrix use?  Whatever was in the Strat he had.

Mid to late sixties on his 'large headstock' post CBS Strats ...  machine wound with PVA Plain enamel wire. This gave more pronounced mids than the early Fender pickup combo of 'heavy Formvar and handwound'... more 'rocky' for the want of a better term.  

Hahaha brilliant!

axisus

Sporky said:

axisus said:

 to me there is a heavy dose of Eric Johnson battery syndrome at work with things like 'handwound pickups'. 

Thing is, there's good science and engineering behind both. Pretty sure I've explained the battery one before - from the point of view of someone with an electronic engineering degree and who's designed, built, and sold quite a lot of pedals. 

Carbon comp batteries (which I believe are the ones Mr Johnson likes) have a very high internal resistance. That means that as the current draw increases, their output voltage drops. In many simple circuits (eg most analogue pedals), dropping the supply voltage results in very significant changes in the sound. We're not talking "golden ears" stuff. TS style circuits get much fuzzier and 'gated', for example. 

Mr Guitar weasel has explained how the different winding patterns affect the capacitance of the pickup, and how that affects the sound. A more advanced winding machine can probably (this is an educated guess on my part) do something similar to scatter winding, but (again, my guess) most machine wound pickups probably have very even windings. 

You don't have to think its worth it, of course, but in both cases the science is simple and sound. 

Yes, but I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous comment:

no other bugger on the planet will notice the difference when it's stuck on a record, played live etc. 

guitars4you

PhilKing said:

guitars4you said:

there are certain options on a Masterbuilt that you can ask for that you can't on a Custom Shop  ie you want the guitar finished in say Celtic FC colours, or whatever your team is, then they will do it

I'm not sure on that p/up request as I've never been asked before - Likewise can I have it fitted with say Lollar p/ups then I don't know, so I would have to ask - there is leeway available on MB - ie you can state a weight say 7lbs and one piece body, for instance

Didn't they do some with Bare Knuckles pickups about 3 years ago?

yes on Custom Shop - a run commissioned by the UK and around 10-20 produced - okay to do this on such a run, but not likely to happen on a one off order on Custom shop

matone

guitars4you said:

I've said this many times before, regarding a potential custom ordered Custom Shop guitar, to your spec - It is like shutting your eyes, dreaming what you want it to be, then after waiting 6-8 months for it to arriving, hoping the finished article will match your dream

Between the various dealers in the UK there is often enough good stock around to find a nice guitar - In trying many different models, you'll find they are all the same, with variations - Some with more subtle differences than others - I've just had arrived 4 x 64 Strats - all identical spec - Are they all the same regarding feel and tone ? - Nearly but subtle differences - Same pick-ups etc, so the only variation is the wood - weight is only a couple of lbs either way - Slight different pitch when you tap them 

My point is that you can request the neck shape you want, the pick-ups, the frets etc etc - I guarantee you won't get a bad guitar, but will it be the one that matches your dream ? - And if it doesn't then nothing you can do about it

If you found a nice guitar in one store, and based your custom ordered guitar on that one guitar, but say a variation in colour etc, it won't be the same as what you have tried - It will be close but not the same - The more C/Shop models you try, the more you'll realise many are similar but they are all different - You just don't know which you are getting until it arrives

Most of the UK dealers will gladly assist on a custom order, but if it was me I'd buy what I can get my hands on now as I know what the finished article is - And if it is the one that ticks the boxes then it doesn't matter what the pick-ups are, spec wise, but you know your ears like 'em

And that applies to all guitars really !