Comparison: Gibson R8 vs Tokai LS150

BloodEagle

prlgmnr said:

These R8s all going for 2499 has had a weird effect on my perception of the relative value of £1500 or so LP alternatives.

Before I would have been all for the Tokai, Bacchus, Navigator, Edwards, 77s of the world, but now I'm thinking "give it a while and there will be a lot of r8s sloshing about the used market".

Watch the outcry when they are quite reasonably listed for pretty close to what they were bought for. 

richardhomer

Great post - the Gibson just looks ‘right’ in terms of finish - the Tokai’s a tad too shiny.

VimFuego

nice right up, as a pure aesthetic and personal preference I prefer the cleaner and less fussy top of the R8, but both look amazing instruments. LP's are my fave looking guitar ever, but I can never get on with them, so it's just as well I can't afford either . 

chrishill901

This is an interesting thread because I have often thought about my own Tokai...

I have a 2000 LS60 (equivalent spec to todays LS90). Its not as top spec as yours - it retails for £1100 so won't be comparable to a Reissue but I have always seen it as my poor man's Gibson and I never lost that desire for a Gibson, despite the fact that I've played many Gibsons that don't play anywhere near as nicely as my Tokai. I wanted an LP Traditional a while back so went to a shop and tried a couple and non of them played as well as my Tokai - I have played studios, standards, tributes... non of them as good (I did play and R8 that beat it hands down however)

In theory I should be satisfied, but I still look for Gibsons and haven't killed that urge. And I guess this is it - that final 10% is often just the badge, just the knowledge that you have something considered the best.

I have convinced myself now that the way round this is to find a signature Slash guitar - I have always wanted one and it would be something different from the Tokai, in some way justifiable because it will have something that the Tokai can't ever have - signature status. My fear is that I'll get one and it still won't be as good as my Tokai, but despite it being the perfect instrument it can't ever be a perfect guitar because it lacks that name. Very dumb I know but inescapable. When I tell people I play a Les Paul they go 'Gibson?' I guess I just want to be able to say yes, and its that yes that makes up the price difference between your two Les Pauls.

Boromedic

Personally I think sometimes if you lust after a certain guitar, in this instance a Gibson Les Paul, whatever you buy outside of that even the best of the best copy of it, will always be exactly that, a copy. This means for some folk, and I include myself in this, only the actual real deal will do. I was similar to you, years ago most of my guitar heroes played Gibson Les Pauls so that's what I wanted, nothing else would do, so I bought my Standard and it's a great guitar. At the time I played some MIJ versions and tbh they were good but they weren't as good, and none of them were a Gibson. If it's a Gibson you really really want no copy will scratch that itch usually.

At the end of the day, there are some amazing versions of Les Pauls out there not made by Gibson, from the MIK ranges to the high end replicas, it's down to the individual which guitar is for you in terms of look, sound, playability etc. and no one else can make that choice. It is a hard fact to swallow that the last 10% of what you're after means spending vastly more, thing is thats the same in any hobby/trade isn't it? Look at cycling, some folk spend 1000's chasing a Strava time thats 2 secs faster than their previous best, most of the rest of us just ride the bike and enjoy it. That doesn't mean they're wrong it's just different strokes for different folks really. 

ICBM

It's nice to see a Gibson with the neck joint made really right like that... and infuriating that they can't do the same on all of them.

I think the Gibson does have the edge for build quality and finishing, but the Tokai is certainly not bad. The headstock does annoy me, as much because it's too *close* to the Gibson as because it's slightly different, and I've always hated the 'Love Rock' decal. (And Lord Player, or any of the other Japanese substitutes.)

If it was me I would turn the D bridge saddle round the right way on the Tokai and move the neck pickup tone cap so it can't short against the pot on the Gibson, but I'm fussy like that .

Both nice guitars, but there's only one I would buy.

JezWynd

Iamnobody said:

Bloody got shots Sir!

JezWynd said:

Are you sure the Tokai is a one piece back? Don't know if my eyes are deceiving me but I'm seeing a join down the centre line.

Yes on a personal note I see a straight line as well.

This does suggest a two piece back - not that it matters - my Orville is a 3 piece back and I believe most standard Gibson and Fenders are multipiece these days.

Thanks for sharing OP. 

Yes, there was no criticism implied in my post, solid guitars don't seem to suffer if multiple pieces of wood are used and the matching on the Tokai (if it is a two piece) is of a very high standard.

Excellent comparison piece. While I love the look of LPs I've never been able to get on with them - not sure why, though the compact body and the weight of the few examples I've tried don't balance well for me, esp when playing seated. Definitely one of the most iconic and beautiful solid guitar designs.

Limehouse_Blues

This is a really cool comparison although in some respects perhaps not comparing like with like as the R8 represents Gibson’s top end while the LS150 sits somewhere in the middle of the Tokai price range. At this price point you wouldn’t get a 1 piece back on the Tokai and to see Tokai’s very best you would need to spend north of 2k. The Tokai LS1 R9s are just under €3k new.

SteveF

I see the line you're all looking at, but I am still not convinced it's a 2 piece. I thought the same and have looked as closely as I can and can't find the line along the edge of the guitar or in the cavities and I think it is just the grain on the back playing tricks. The harder I look the more my eyes play tricks on me. Maybe it is, maybe not, I'm not sure it makes much of a difference.  I think the spec is supposed to be a 2 piece - thought I'd got lucky. 

SteveF

Limehouse_Blues said:

This is a really cool comparison although in some respects perhaps not comparing like with like as the R8 represents Gibson’s top end while the LS150 sits somewhere in the middle of the Tokai price range. At this price point you wouldn’t get a 1 piece back on the Tokai and to see Tokai’s very best you would need to spend north of 2k. The Tokai LS1 R9s are just under €3k new.

Yeah, I wasn't so much looking at a like for like exactly but trying to show the sort of quality you can get as a viable affordable alternative to a Gibson.  Just a bit of fun really.  

SteveF

ICBM said:

It's nice to see a Gibson with the neck joint made really right like that... and infuriating that they can't do the same on all of them.

I think the Gibson does have the edge for build quality and finishing, but the Tokai is certainly not bad. The headstock does annoy me, as much because it's too *close* to the Gibson as because it's slightly different, and I've always hated the 'Love Rock' decal. (And Lord Player, or any of the other Japanese substitutes.)

If it was me I would turn the D bridge saddle round the right way on the Tokai and move the neck pickup tone cap so it can't short against the pot on the Gibson, but I'm fussy like that .

Both nice guitars, but there's only one I would buy.

Nice to hear you say that - I hadn't seen one with a gap before and was expecting to see it fill the pocket fully like the Tokai's one.  Didn't know what was correct, so was hoping someone would say something  

Didn't even notice the D saddle and it's intonated (intoned?) well, so hadn't thought of moving it - didn't even realise there was a 'right' way, just intonated or not!  

The cap isn't as close as it looks in the second picture - the one above shows it's not touching. Might just move it a touch now you've said that though, or I'll fret about it! :P 

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

It's nice to see a Gibson with the neck joint made really right like that... and infuriating that they can't do the same on all of them.

It's quite a shock looking at that picture of the neck pickup cavity, it's so perfectly clean and neat - no excess glue, no "hair" at the edges of the routing, no polishing residue.

Is it definitely a Gibson? 

ICBM

SteveF said:

Nice to hear you say that - I hadn't seen one with a gap before and was expecting to see it fill the pocket fully like the Tokai's one.  Didn't know what was correct, so was hoping someone would say something

Yes, the gap at the end is normal and has no structural implication - it's done deliberately to make sure that the joint on the outside of the body is tight. Technically it isn't possible to get *both* quite perfectly tight at the same time, so it's better to leave the gap on the one you can't see.

What's wrong is when they leave gaps underneath - you can't see to tell without x-raying it, but the neck angle on this one is nice and low going by the bridge height, so it should be fine - or at the sides. Both these drastically weaken the joint.

SteveF said:

Didn't even notice the D saddle and it's intonated (intoned?) well, so hadn't thought of moving it - didn't even realise there was a 'right' way, just intonated or not!

Right is with the vertical face of the saddle facing the neck - this gives the cleanest 'take off point' for the string vibration, and reduces string breakage. Gibson usually reverse the E and often the A to give more room for intonating those strings, but if the D is also reversed it often won't go far enough forward to intonate.

SteveF said:

The cap isn't as close as it looks in the second picture - the one above shows it's not touching. Might just move it a touch now you've said that though, or I'll fret about it! :P 

I noticed that, and thought you must have moved it, or it moved by itself. I would move it further so it definitely can't contact the pot.

longjaw

Great posts @SteveF ;

Dave_Mc

Brilliant thread Very informative, and a lot of work. Thanks!

earwighoney

Superb comparison thread.  I've taken a while to look through a few times and the OP really went all the way and as much as I love great pictures, it was the measurements with the calipers that brought me the most pleasure!  I'm a sucker for details like that and appreciate the pedant in both. 

One measurement I couldn't find though were frets?  I presume the fretwire used is roughly the same dimensions?  It looks it in the pictures.  

To the OP, it's difficult to tell exactly but is the pickup closer to the bridge for the Gibson than it is for the Tokai? 

They look like two fantastic guitars though.

SteveF

I didn't think to measure the frets but yes, they seem pretty similar.  Fairly low profile.  I usually prefer big frets, but I guess this is pretty standard for vintage spec

I hadn't noticed about the bridge - I'll check next time I'm up in the room

Stuckfast

The Tokai is a nicer colour.

gordiji

Limehouse_Blues said:

This is a really cool comparison although in some respects perhaps not comparing like with like as the R8 represents Gibson’s top end while the LS150 sits somewhere in the middle of the Tokai price range. At this price point you wouldn’t get a 1 piece back on the Tokai and to see Tokai’s very best you would need to spend north of 2k. The Tokai LS1 R9s are just under €3k new.

I recently sold my LS150, 2010 model & it definately was 1 piece back as the spec said.(not that it matters !)

Good post.

Voxman

Excellent post that clearly took a lot of time & thought, and I thoroughly enjoyed the read and photo-comparisons and learnt a lot, thank you.

As good as the Tokai undoubtedly is, I'd only ever go for the Gibson myself - I openly admit it's largely sheer snobbery because of the Gibson name (although your review confirms the Gibson has the edge on tone), but also being realistic in terms of any future resale.  If I was lucky enough to be able to afford and get a brand new R8 for under £2,500 I know I'd likely be able to sell it for 90% - 100% of its cost.  With the Tokai, the value drop in proportion to its new price would be a lot more and the Gibson name is a lot easier to sell. And regardless of how good a guitar it was, it just wouldn't feel 'proper' & special to me - the Gibson would.  I'm a name slut, what can I say!