Car test drive accidents

ICBM

Sporky said:

Why should the shop take a hit for me being careless about an expensive guitar? If they claim on their insurance the premiums will go up and they'll still have to pay the excess - all because I didn't make sure I put a guitar back properly. 

Maybe I just have an unusual sense of personal responsibility. 

So you would have paid up? What if it had been a '59 Les Paul worth a quarter of a million?

And are you sure the hanger wasn't faulty? I have no idea - but it might have been, I've seen that happen before too.

That sort of thing is exactly what insurance is for. The manager did say it would be covered, by the way.

Sporky

ICBM said:

And are you sure the hanger wasn't faulty? I have no idea - but it might have been, I've seen that happen before too.

You said the chap didn't put it back right. That's what I had to go on. 

If the story is now that a shop had a faulty hangar right above an unprotected quarter of a million guitar then that's different, but that's not what I answered. What next? It wasn't a guitar shop, and the tiger ate the baby because the nun wasn't wearing a hard hat? 

If I was at fault I'd take responsibility for it. I honestly don't get why you think that's bad and wrong. 

goldtop

CHrisP86 said:

To me it it really is the same as being handed a bill for petrol costs, a cost of trying to sell a car.

It's really not. The dealer's loss of value was due to your negligence; both parties had the reasonable expectation that there would be no damage. Using up the dealer's petrol: both parties had the reasonable expectation that it would happen.

£100 seems excessive, especially as they would be paying trade rates (and that's all they can legitimately charge you), and if there was any pre-existing damage to the wheel (other scuffs) then I'd have wiggled and met half-way, but it seems fair to me.

ICBM

Sporky said:

You said the chap didn't put it back right. That's what I had to go on. 

If the story is now that a shop had a faulty hangar right above an unprotected quarter of a million guitar then that's different, but that's not what I answered. What next? It wasn't a guitar shop, and the tiger ate the baby because the nun wasn't wearing a hard hat? 

If I was at fault I'd take responsibility for it. I honestly don't get why you think that's bad and wrong. 

I think it's a noble ideal, but not very realistic in many situations.

I have no idea if the guitar wasn't put back right or the hanger was loose, I only saw the last person to touch it and then it fall. Maybe lawyers should have been appointed to assign blame and make it even more expensive?

Or maybe the shop just took the sensible attitude that being insured for accidental damage is part of the cost of doing business.

Sporky

ICBM said:

I have no idea if the guitar wasn't put back right or the hanger was loose, I only saw the last person to touch it and then it fall

OK, but that's not what you said. I responded to what you posted, which is that the guy didn't put it back right. If the shop is fine with covering the costs then that's their prerogative, I just don't like the attitude that it's automatically the shop's problem when a customer is careless or negligent. 

Put it this way; if everyone took responsibility for damage they caused, would the world be a better or a worse place? 

ICBM

Sporky said:

If the shop is fine with covering the costs then that's their prerogative, I just don't like the attitude that it's automatically the shop's problem when a customer is careless or negligent.

Ah, but you've just assumed that the customer thought it would be. He actually asked if he would have to pay for it.

Sporky said:

Put it this way; if everyone took responsibility for damage they caused, would the world be a better or a worse place? 

Hard to say - everyone would have to have enormously expensive personal liability insurance to cover themselves for extremely rare occurrences which are currently covered by insurance specific to those situations. And if they didn't, or there was something in the small print that meant they weren't covered, they could be personally bankrupted and lose everything. Is that a good thing? I would say not.

In the original case here, the dealership could ask prospective buyers to sign a form before the test drive saying that they accept responsibility for the excess - they chose not to. Whose responsibility is that?

Sporky

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

If the shop is fine with covering the costs then that's their prerogative, I just don't like the attitude that it's automatically the shop's problem when a customer is careless or negligent.

Ah, but you've just assumed that the customer thought it would be. He actually asked if he would have to pay for it.

I made no such assumption. I was commenting on an attitude in general - you didn't say what the chap had done.

It doesn't need to be ridiculous all-litigation-all-the-time scenario - I never suggested that. But if more people took more responsibility for the outcome of their actions the world would be a better place, no matter how many contrived edge cases anyone comes up with to try to prove otherwise in the most extreme and implausible set-ups. 

Nitefly

Fascinating.  I've said it before, and I'll say it again:  You can't outspork a Sporky.  Even when you're ICBM.

ICBM

Sporky said:

It doesn't need to be ridiculous all-litigation-all-the-time scenario - I never suggested that. But if more people took more responsibility for the outcome of their actions the world would be a better place, no matter how many contrived edge cases anyone comes up with to try to prove otherwise in the most extreme and implausible set-ups. 

In an implausibly ideal world, yes. But the problem is that humans make mistakes, without any ill intent. For everyone to always take their own responsibility for the most extreme outcomes of these could have catastrophic financial results.

Hence why we have insurance.

SteveRobinson

I did a finish repair recently on a Strat bought from PMT. The owner had put it back on the wall and it fell off so he felt obliged to buy it. PMT said no need and that their insurance would cover the damage but he bought it anyway.

Sesh

SteveRobinson said:

I did a finish repair recently on a Strat bought from PMT. The owner had put it back on the wall and it fell off so he felt obliged to buy it. PMT said no need and that their insurance would cover the damage but he bought it anyway.

So, he's really gassing for a strat, but can't justify it to wife. One repairable ding and then "the shop made me buy it, love." I hope he was cheeky enough to ask for a discount as it was b-stock.

goldtop

ICBM said:

Sporky said:

It doesn't need to be ridiculous all-litigation-all-the-time scenario - I never suggested that. But if more people took more responsibility for the outcome of their actions the world would be a better place, no matter how many contrived edge cases anyone comes up with to try to prove otherwise in the most extreme and implausible set-ups. 

In an implausibly ideal world, yes. But the problem is that humans make mistakes, without any ill intent. For everyone to always take their own responsibility for the most extreme outcomes of these could have catastrophic financial results.

Hence why we have insurance.

Moral hazard.

It's one thing to have insurance to cater for the tiny risk of ruinous costs (e.g. millions for fatal traffic accidents).

It's another thing to expect someone else's insurance to cover the costs of your everyday negligence.

midlifecrisis

thinking about it i think its disgusting that a dealership would expect a customer to pay for damage like that. The dealership would undoubltly have insurance and a scuffed wheel would cost them minimum and not worth them claiming anyway. Sounds like the salesman was trying to pocket a few extra quid. If a dealer tried that on with me i would very loudly in front of any prospective customers tell them to sling their hook. I would bad mouth them on every social media platform possible warning people what they were like. accidents happen, insurance premiums are paid. that isnt going to make a dealers premiums shoot up. 

goldtop

midlifecrisis said:

thinking about it i think its disgusting that a dealership would expect a customer to pay for damage like that. The dealership would undoubltly have insurance and a scuffed wheel would cost them minimum and not worth them claiming anyway. Sounds like the salesman was trying to pocket a few extra quid. If a dealer tried that on with me i would very loudly in front of any prospective customers tell them to sling their hook. I would bad mouth them on every social media platform possible warning people what they were like. accidents happen, insurance premiums are paid. that isnt going to make a dealers premiums shoot up. 

Let me see if I understand: you'd loudly proclaim in a dealership that you can't drive very well?

Or would you keep that fact quiet?

m_c

I'm actually more surprised their excess is only £500. Last dealer I spoke to several years ago, their excess was over £1k, as it was the only way to get a sensible insurance quote. I'd imagine most will be over £2k by now.

I know my employers excess is over £20k although we don't do sales. It's all factored into the risk v. cost done regularly by the bean counters, and if we do smash something, cost is never mentioned. Only thing considered is if you were being an idiot or not.

midlifecrisis

goldtop said:

midlifecrisis said:

thinking about it i think its disgusting that a dealership would expect a customer to pay for damage like that. The dealership would undoubltly have insurance and a scuffed wheel would cost them minimum and not worth them claiming anyway. Sounds like the salesman was trying to pocket a few extra quid. If a dealer tried that on with me i would very loudly in front of any prospective customers tell them to sling their hook. I would bad mouth them on every social media platform possible warning people what they were like. accidents happen, insurance premiums are paid. that isnt going to make a dealers premiums shoot up. 

Let me see if I understand: you'd loudly proclaim in a dealership that you can't drive very well?

Or would you keep that fact quiet?

you can be a very safe driver but even so accidents can happen, scraping a wheel hub is not the same as coming off the road and driving into a bus stop.,its a cheap simple repair and for a deelership that  probably has its own repair shop its very petty to try and pinch £100 off a prespective buyer, also terrible customer relations

goldtop

midlifecrisis said:

goldtop said:

midlifecrisis said:

thinking about it i think its disgusting that a dealership would expect a customer to pay for damage like that. The dealership would undoubltly have insurance and a scuffed wheel would cost them minimum and not worth them claiming anyway. Sounds like the salesman was trying to pocket a few extra quid. If a dealer tried that on with me i would very loudly in front of any prospective customers tell them to sling their hook. I would bad mouth them on every social media platform possible warning people what they were like. accidents happen, insurance premiums are paid. that isnt going to make a dealers premiums shoot up. 

Let me see if I understand: you'd loudly proclaim in a dealership that you can't drive very well?

Or would you keep that fact quiet?

you can be a very safe driver but even so accidents can happen, scraping a wheel hub is not the same as coming off the road and driving into a bus stop.,its a cheap simple repair and for a deelership that  probably has its own repair shop its very petty to try and pinch £100 off a prespective buyer, also terrible customer relations

You didn't answer my Qs. But I can see why.

midlifecrisis

goldtop said:

midlifecrisis said:

goldtop said:

midlifecrisis said:

thinking about it i think its disgusting that a dealership would expect a customer to pay for damage like that. The dealership would undoubltly have insurance and a scuffed wheel would cost them minimum and not worth them claiming anyway. Sounds like the salesman was trying to pocket a few extra quid. If a dealer tried that on with me i would very loudly in front of any prospective customers tell them to sling their hook. I would bad mouth them on every social media platform possible warning people what they were like. accidents happen, insurance premiums are paid. that isnt going to make a dealers premiums shoot up. 

Let me see if I understand: you'd loudly proclaim in a dealership that you can't drive very well?

Or would you keep that fact quiet?

you can be a very safe driver but even so accidents can happen, scraping a wheel hub is not the same as coming off the road and driving into a bus stop.,its a cheap simple repair and for a deelership that  probably has its own repair shop its very petty to try and pinch £100 off a prespective buyer, also terrible customer relations

You didn't answer my Qs. But I can see why.

the answer is there but i'll spell it out for you. I would admit that it was a mistake, even the best of drivers have them. If one continually has them then sure you can say they are a bad driver. But that is not the point of the original post, 

Hattigol

What next? It wasn't a guitar shop, and the tiger ate the baby because the nun wasn't wearing a hard hat? 

Hell of a film script....

goldtop

midlifecrisis said:

the answer is there but i'll spell it out for you. I would admit that it was a mistake, even the best of drivers have them. If one continually has them then sure you can say they are a bad driver. But that is not the point of the original post, 

To be clear, I was asking whether you would shout as loudly about having driven the car into the kerb as you would when denouncing the dealer. I understand this is a path of discussion you've chosen in support of the OP, but I do not believe for a minute that you would do it. Because it sounds exactly like something you'd hear from the so-called "the entitlement generation".